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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ The Gambling Spot Ľ Ľ Poker player loses court battle over £7.7m winnings from London casino (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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slim23
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Cag,

Always a pleasure reading your stories of the casinos.

Thanks,

Slim
dbolan
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On Nov 18, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jason I believe they can show you the door and bar further play but would have to pay the bet. Since it is not against the law, but just discouraged I think they have to pay. Then they bar you if they find out.

Mind you this is only an opinion, and not a legal one at that. So it might be closer to a guess lol.


This is right. When in doubt, players are kicked out.
"I didn't want him to feel that he could drive the lane with impunity."

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dbolan
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On Oct 26, 2017, Mr. Bones
On another note, as Jason points out above, senior management was essentially in on the whole thing as it was happening. Somehow I believe that if Arnold, Jason, Tommy, Cag or I were the Supervisor at Ivey's baccarat table that night, and Ivey (of all people) asked if the dealer would turn an entire series of cards, the first thing any one of us would think of is something related to edge sorting!


Our group of magicians may think of a flaw in card printing based on our experience with marked decks. But Iím not sure a casino would realize there is a possibility they have asymmetrically-printed decks.

Dave
"I didn't want him to feel that he could drive the lane with impunity."

- David Robinson
tommy
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As a kid, I worked as a waiter at a few private Chemin de fer parties and the cards used in those games had blank white backs and perhaps thatís why.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Bones
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On Jan 9, 2021, dbolan wrote:
Our group of magicians may think of a flaw in card printing based on our experience with marked decks. But Iím not sure a casino would realize there is a possibility they have asymmetrically-printed decks.

Dave

I would consider the typical magician to be no different than any of the other fish at a typical gaming table.
Magicians are lightweights when it comes to gambling and hustling ... with very limited knowledge and far too much hubris.

Although casinos (more likely individual employees) do indeed occasionally make errors, presuming casinos could be fooled en masse by a poorly printed deck is utterly ridiculous.
Mr. Bones
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dbolan
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On Jan 10, 2021, Mr. Bones wrote:

Although casinos (more likely individual employees) do indeed occasionally make errors, presuming casinos could be fooled en masse by a poorly printed deck is utterly ridiculous.


It may be utterly ridiculous, Mister Bones, but it happened.
"I didn't want him to feel that he could drive the lane with impunity."

- David Robinson
tommy
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I think most of these casino scams are inside jobs; achieved by colluding players and croupiers, etcetera.

Employees do indeed occasionally make deliberate errors.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
dbolan
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On Jan 11, 2021, tommy wrote:
I think most of these casino scams are inside jobs; achieved by colluding players and croupiers, etcetera.


Quite likely. But very unlikely in this case. Ivey was in his prime, the #1 poker player in the world when this took place, with over $20M of lifetime live tournament earnings, a multiple of that in cash games and considerable endorsements. He is such a cerebral man, it seems very unlikely he was colluding with a staffer when there has been no known instance of him doing so at any other time in his career.

Dave
"I didn't want him to feel that he could drive the lane with impunity."

- David Robinson
Mr. Bones
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On Jan 10, 2021, dbolan wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 10, 2021, Mr. Bones wrote:

Although casinos (more likely individual employees) do indeed occasionally make errors, presuming casinos could be fooled en masse by a poorly printed deck is utterly ridiculous.


It may be utterly ridiculous, Mister Bones, but it happened.


Ivey didn't get his payout ... nothing "happened".
If you read this entire thread, you'll see a deep dive into what might, or might not have happened has already taken place.

Nothing related to this incident is as clear cut as you're trying to portray it.
Mr. Bones
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dbolan
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On Jan 11, 2021, Mr. Bones wrote:
Nothing related to this incident is as clear cut as you're trying to portray it.


Stop it. Iím not trying to portray jack. Iím a dude reading a magic discussion forum.
"I didn't want him to feel that he could drive the lane with impunity."

- David Robinson
Mr. Bones
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Head on back to the vent'n'dummy forum.
They're waiting for you.
Mr. Bones
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dbolan
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On Jan 11, 2021, Mr. Bones wrote:
Head on back to the vent'n'dummy forum.
They're waiting for you.


Come on, bro. Donít be trash. Keep it classy.
"I didn't want him to feel that he could drive the lane with impunity."

- David Robinson
tommy
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Why do think he asked for an Asian croupier?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Bones
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Kelly Sun was asking the dealer to turn the cards in Mandarin, and the pit bosses couldn't understand Mandarin ... I think it was as simple as that.
It kept the heat off Ivey while at the table, and was the prime reason Ivey sought permission in advance to have Kelly Sun with him as a "guest".

Regardless, as of a few months ago, Ivey settled with the Borgata, terms not made public but likely he got his initial deposit back and court costs covered ... at least that would be my guess ... I doubt Ivey got any additional money though, as I think all parties saw the Crockfords verdict as a potential "trend setter" for the Borgata case, which would have caused Ivey to want to simply end the legal battle in order to reduce his risk ... and would have also emboldened the Borgata to play hardball and not agree with any settlement that included giving Ivey any "winnings".

That judges and justices don't understand what advantage play is was what lost it for Ivey ... but in the end, an advantage hustle is still a hustle nonetheless - and hustles don't allways pan out.
Mr. Bones
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tommy
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I think the judges have a pretty good understanding of probabilities:

https://www.burnetts.co.uk/blog/on-the-b......an%20not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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I agree with you that Judges and Justices are pretty well read on a multitude of topics, but an outsider (a Judge or Justice) has to have a comprehensive understanding the entire gambling landscape in order to fully appreciate the difference between cheating and legal advantage play.

Judges understand probabilities as they relate to civil law cases, but the Justice in question in the Crockford's case demonstrated that she didn't understand the implications of a person legally acting to alter probabilities in order to increase their advantage.
She made critical errors (all rooted in lack of knowledge) in establishing her verdict ... IMO it's as simple as that.

At the heart of all of this is the simple fact that Ivey didn't get arrested or charged with any crime in either country ... which is representative of the fact that advantage play is completely legal in the UK and in the U.S.
Mr. Bones
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tommy
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Well, I do not recall all the details of the case now but it seems to me that the issue before the court was a pretty simple one; did Phil Ivey persuade the casino to agree to the conditions of the bets by deception to gain an advantage or not.

If he did then the bets are void and it was fair for the casino to say that he was a cheat on that basis. Was there evidence that Phil Ivey said something like, I want you to turn the cards because I am suppositious? If so, was that a lie that amounted to deception?

If he lied to get the casino to agree to the conditions, it is the same as a business deal where one side tricks the other party into entering into an agreement is it not? Phil admitted he got an advantage from the casino agreeing to the conditions and that was not the real issue.

In short, I think the case was about what was said, as opposed to what was done.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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It a legal thing: a con man I knew used to buy cars off car dealers, pretending he customers for them but in reality, he would sell the cars at auction at a small loss. After he won the car dealers trust doing so for a while, he would go in and say he had a customer for Rolls Royce they had they would agree to take it and sell it for a commission. He would take the Rolls Royce and sell it and keep the money. Was this illegal? No! it was civil matter because the dealers had agreed. All they could do was sue him for the money. He did it over and over again with different dealers and cars. The police knew full well what he doing but could not arrest him because it was not a crime. If you understand that, then you will also understand it was not a crime that Phil did but wrong.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Bones
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Ultimately, I believe what's important is that Ivey is telling the truth (he admits to the advantage play), and the casinos are lying, in that they were obviously aware that some of Ivey's requests made in advance had the potential to give him an advantage.
Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the casinos had analyzed the possible edge Ivey might acquire through his requests, and having made that analysis the casinos decided they still had a large enough edge to win Ivey's stake.

Of course that all went sideways when Ivey leveraged his advantage such that there was no way the casino was going to win, indeed it would have become apparent that they were going to lose.

I think Crockford's realized this loss was pending, and choose not to give Ivey his "winnings" ... and then the Borgotta simply jumped on the bandwagon once they saw what legal action Crockford's was taking, and they sued for Ivey's winnings back.

I don't think it's realistic to believe that Ivey was "fooling" the casinos at any point in time before, or during his play ... rather I think the casinos took a chance that their edge was still substantial enough that they could take Ivey's money ... the casinos took that chance and lost, and thus the rest of this story played out.
Mr. Bones
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tommy
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Well, I think the advantage played was perfectly legal, which is why he was not arrested. It states in the 60-minute program above that Edge Sorting is not illegal.

I think the civil case arose out of him deceiving the casino into agreeing to the conditions, which happened when he or she asked the casino staff to turn the cards because he or she falsely claimed they were superstitious. That claim was a lie and that argument was put to Phil in the interview above and as I recall, Phil did not deny that fact.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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