The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Magic as a gateway to occultism (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3~4 [Next]
The Hermit
View Profile
Loyal user
295 Posts

Profile of The Hermit
I started in magic 50+ years ago. I read all the classics and was a decent performer. As I explored the idea of magic, I became interested on occult phenomena (nowadays metaphysical). It became a lifelong passion that lead to me becoming an astrologer and well versed in many areas of arcane wisdom. Also, maybe it was the times 60s and 70s. Did any of you do the same - begin to explore ideas about nature from an occult perspective because of your interest in magic? I feel much of magic today is strongly influenced by the skeptics (probably a Randi thing). Not saying it's good or bad. Just wondering how many others moved to a more metaphysical worldview from childhood magic.
WitchDocChris
View Profile
Inner circle
York, PA
2324 Posts

Profile of WitchDocChris
Personally I went the other way. Metaphysical to magic.
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8512 Posts

Profile of funsway
For me they have always been intertwined. I moved away from a limiting religious bias to a more expansive metaphysical one, but can't say it was "because of magic"
over many other factors. Reading a book like "To a God Unknown" probably had a greater say, but one might say that isi about magic too.

In a novel I wrote (Two Cabins) two of the main characters are performing magicians with their experiences effecting how they make life decisions including metaphysical ones.

So, I do feel that "pretending at magic" must prompt questions about "what are you pretending at," but not that there is any preferred path to exploring life's mysteries and "awe and wonder."

Coincidentally, just yesterday I changed my by-line
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
jstreiff
View Profile
Special user
702 Posts

Profile of jstreiff
In the late 50's magic instilled in me a skepticism and my upbringing a penchant for objective rational logical critical evidence-based thinking. In the early 1970s I conducted controlled psi experiments which persuaded me reluctantly that psi should be taken seriously. That led to inquiries into the nature of reality over 35 years ago which today has produced deep insights explaining the natural world for me.
John
thatmichaelguy
View Profile
New user
62 Posts

Profile of thatmichaelguy
I am a skeptic independent of my experiences with magic and mentalism, but I feel like they serve as really great reminders that your logic, intuition, and senses can all be deceived rather easily and readily. So, it's important to constantly question what you think you know. This sort of introspection does lead different people down different paths though.
WitchDocChris
View Profile
Inner circle
York, PA
2324 Posts

Profile of WitchDocChris
Quote:
On Oct 27, 2017, thatmichaelguy wrote:
I am a skeptic independent of my experiences with magic and mentalism, but I feel like they serve as really great reminders that your logic, intuition, and senses can all be deceived rather easily and readily. So, it's important to constantly question what you think you know. This sort of introspection does lead different people down different paths though.


Excellent points.
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15746 Posts

Profile of tommy
Yes, I think perhaps through our magic I became interested in hermetic teachings and Egypt etcetera although it might have been the other way around.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles
3262 Posts

Profile of Pop Haydn
I always felt that "magic" was just one theme for our artform. Alien Technology, Time Travel, Alchemy, Spirits, ESP, and many other types of impossibilities work just as well. Since the occult was very rarely one of the themes I have used as a performer, performance and study of the art didn't have much of an effect on my interest in the arcane and mystical.
Stellan
View Profile
Special user
Sweden
580 Posts

Profile of Stellan
Our magic of today and the magicians role of today must have evolved from the magicians of yesterday, that is from a role in an earlier culture. The difference is that they aimed at influence people in another way, wanting to protect or heal their subjects or to harm them. We don't want to do that but we still want to make an impact. I have grown interested in that common land related to the performance aspect. What they said and did had to do with drama and to touch people emotionally so they remembered the event and told stories about it. Smile
"There is no reality, only perception."
Pop Haydn
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles
3262 Posts

Profile of Pop Haydn
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2017, Stellan wrote:
Our magic of today and the magicians role of today must have evolved from the magicians of yesterday, that is from a role in an earlier culture. The difference is that they aimed at influence people in another way, wanting to protect or heal their subjects or to harm them. We don't want to do that but we still want to make an impact. I have grown interested in that common land related to the performance aspect. What they said and did had to do with drama and to touch people emotionally so they remembered the event and told stories about it. Smile


I don't believe this is true. There have always been charlatans, priests and conmen who have used the technology of deception to take advantage of people. Magicians who perform for entertainment are basically a burlesque of charlatanry. We are not the descendants of priests and shamans. We are the descendents of those who mocked them.

Seneca, 100 AD: "I love to watch the street performers with their tricks, but once I find out how it is done, I lose all interest." How is this different from a modern audience member?
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15746 Posts

Profile of tommy
Not say all occultists are charlatans.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8512 Posts

Profile of funsway
It sure would be great if magicians could perform daily before the US Congress and Administration. Maybe it could reduce the charlatanry there.
On the other side, many political discussions do resemble a Slide Box Routine, including someone holding up applause cards.

Our "leaders" are now entertainers and entertainers viewed as legitimate authorities Perhaps there will be staff positions for magicians - a Cabinet Post?

Joking aside, I see value in the contributions of both Whit and Stellan. Another factor being that what a performer expects from a demonstration
may not be what the audience expects or perceives. Any demonstration of the impossible being defeated or controlled can bring observers to consider reality.
What they do with this revelation is uncertain.

I would certainly support Pop if he ran for high office. His machinations would be more real than what many elected officials are offering now.

On the occult side, what would be the impact of Energized Water on the Trickle Down Theory? Could it remove the rust belt?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Stellan
View Profile
Special user
Sweden
580 Posts

Profile of Stellan
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:

I don't believe this is true. There have always been charlatans, priests and conmen who have used the technology of deception to take advantage of people. Magicians who perform for entertainment are basically a burlesque of charlatanry. We are not the descendants of priests and shamans. We are the descendents of those who mocked them.


Maybe you are right, but does not that reasoning also house a contradiction? If we are descendants from those who mocked the priests and shamans that is a reaction to or a reflection of the latter, and they are the original source.

I do not know so much about shamanism and magic in different cultures, but I know a little bit about Norse magic. In that society, let say from early iron age to viking age, it seems that magic cult was performed by the ruling class and those close to them, that is far from street performers. (I don’t think magic for pure entertainment was performed at this time in this society.)

This is consistent with the Islandic sagas where the ruler Oden is the keeper of magic secrets. I like the expression "burlesque of charlatanry" and I have read some of your thoughts about the role of the trickster, who is represented in the sagas by Loke, the god that can’t be trusted. (So the trickster was born before magic as entertainment.) The oral tradition of the sagas was however entertainment that contained magic, though it was not performed!

In that tradition we have the magician and we have the trickster (and of course the charlatan, though it is not explicit) and we have descriptions of their magic feets. We also have fairly much description of the technology of deception used at the time, and some of those principles we use today.

The kernel of our craft, the technology of deception, we share with conmen, frauds, military strategists, marketing managers, politicians (as funsway points out) and businessmen. What sets us aside is that we use the advantage created to prove us as magicians juggling the roles of tricksters and magicians (charlatans). Roles that are very old, much older than the performance of magic as entertainment.
"There is no reality, only perception."
Pop Haydn
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles
3262 Posts

Profile of Pop Haydn
One of the early famous magic tricks created for entertainment was the Chess Playing Turk. How does that fit into the idea that "our magic" is about the occult or "real" magicians?
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15746 Posts

Profile of tommy
I think it depends on how it is presented. Magic is essentially evocation. The Chess Playing Turk, for example, could be presented as magic by calling upon the spirit of a dead chess player to possess its body and play. Or it could be presented as advanced science. Either way, it would be marvelous but it would not be the same idea of what it is that is going on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Stellan
View Profile
Special user
Sweden
580 Posts

Profile of Stellan
What do you mean? The Turk was not the magician. It was the trick. It was presented mostly by it’s creator Kempelen. Who says ”Our magic” is about the occult or ”real” magicians? It can be if you chose a bizarre theme. What I am saying is that the magicians role, the concept of a magician and the archetype ”magician” has it’s root somewhere long before ”Our magic” existed.
"There is no reality, only perception."
Stellan
View Profile
Special user
Sweden
580 Posts

Profile of Stellan
When it comes to the trick I agree with Tommy. Bringing life into a dead object must be the ultimate occult effect.
"There is no reality, only perception."
Pop Haydn
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles
3262 Posts

Profile of Pop Haydn
In this effect the machine was driven by clockwork. It was presented as a machine that could think. "Magic" is just one possible theme of the Art of the Impossible.
Stellan
View Profile
Special user
Sweden
580 Posts

Profile of Stellan
This is exactly the same trick as The Turk - to the squirrel.

Click here to view attached image.
"There is no reality, only perception."
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15746 Posts

Profile of tommy
Computers are machines which can play chess but are they magic?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Magic as a gateway to occultism (3 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.21 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL