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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Magic as a gateway to occultism (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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funsway
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On Nov 12, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
You can accept or not accept anything you like. But you also can't define things for anyone else


and, I didn't. I offered a possible alternative for comparison. Not exactly my personal view --
just helping other explore their own, personal definition.

but, I would suggest that each performer's definition might influence how they engage an audience or choose a routine.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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thatmichaelguy
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On Nov 11, 2017, Doc Willie wrote:
To go 180 degrees on this, Bill Nye suggested that teaching magic to children was a good way to introduce them to skeptical thinking. I am still trying to retrace his thinking on this.


I said this before on another thread, but magic often serves as a very good reminder that your logic, intuition, and senses can be fooled rather easily and readily. With an understanding of that, it's a good lesson in avoiding acceptance of new experiences and information at face value (to be skeptical), and instead use critical thinking skills to test the truth of any claim.
tommy
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Maskelyne said it in 1912 in this book when exposing charlatan occultists like Madame Blavatsky

https://archive.org/details/1912Maskelyn......heosophy

It is a good book which helps in understanding the nature of such people and their believers.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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funsway
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On Nov 12, 2017, tommy wrote:

It is a good book which helps in understanding the nature of such people and their believers.



for something more current, several books on neuroscience are very readable for the lay person, and provide new findings about how people think and handle beliefs.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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97% of neuroscientists agree that characters who pretend to perform impossible feats for anything but entrainment are charlatans.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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funsway
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The other 3% write books contain facts.

Not sure what "entrainment" means anyway. Quick - make something up Smile

Strange, I just scanned my five books on neuroscience and the word "charlatan" does not appear anywhere. Must be magic.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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Non-materialist neuroscience is something of a cult: a cheesy anti-science movement if you will and there are plenty of charlatans into it. Legit magicians might want to look into it, with a view to creating some parody of its mystery for amusement, a deliberate exaggeration for comic effect, an illusion.

"What would it take for consciousness to defeat materialism or physicalism? This is the worldview that only the physical is real, which is the dominant view of scientists and philosophers. Here's what it would take: our inner awareness, our experience of what things feel like, could not be explained by physical brain alone That's it. A tall order, though."

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/doe......erialism
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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funsway
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What you say about "non-materialistic neuroscience" is true - it is like cult - based on the theories of one man.

and there certainly seems some fraudulent activity there. But, it can't be charlatanry since there is no claim of pretending at the impossible. Just fraud.

But, this has little to do with legitimate neuroscience and neurobiology and their discoveries about how the brain functions and makes decisions.

One might guess you have never actually read a book on neuroscience - only quick internet searches on wing-dings.

It is a fact that theories such as "cognitive dissonance" are incorrect and do not represent how the brain works. This, can and has been tested under laboratory conditions.
naturally, some people do like their favorite theories debased, so they set up a new religion worshiping a different god. Wierd, but not charlatanry either.

One can also ponder if there is more to the function of a brain than that physical chemical shifting. That is philosophy.
Some feel that everything we perceive is an illusion - a product of perceptions rather than factual data. But that doesn't make it magic.

and, your attempt to attach the term "charlatan" to any idea not fitting into your theory box of the moment is also an illusion. Not magic though, just silly.

I keep reading your posts because occasionally you offer a glimmer of reason or humor. Not here, though.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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Charlatans, more often than not, prepend what they do is possible, when in fact what they seem to do is impossible and of course they are frauds. But, according to Ken's nonsense, that can't be charlatanry since there is no claim of pretending at the impossible.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
97% of neuroscientists agree that characters who pretend to perform impossible feats for anything but entrainment are charlatans.


Image
Christopher
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tommy
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Said the Witch Doctor while feeding his friend a toad.

The neuroscientist Mario Beauregard's quantum mind theory is funny. Beauregard's arguments owe a lot to intelligent design and creationism, since he has basically co-opted their successful two-tier strategy. First, create a false dichotomy and then second, find something interesting and proclaim that you don't see how that could happen without a God/soul/alien interfering so therefore a God/soul/alien must have done it. That is more or less that which we do in our magic for amusement. Unlike Michael Egnor who is the main proponent of the non-materialist neuroscience cult, Beauregard has published some of his ideas in peer-reviewed journals.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-materialist_neuroscience
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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WitchDocChris
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I'm 100% honest in my non-performance Witch Doctoring. I'm just wondering if you have a source for that 97% statistic.
Christopher
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tommy
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We wonder what % of Witch Doctors claim they are 100% honest in their non-performance Witch Doctoring.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Quote:
On Nov 17, 2017, tommy wrote:
Charlatans, more often than not, prepend what they do is possible, when in fact what they seem to do is impossible and of course they are frauds. But, according to Ken's nonsense, that can't be charlatanry since there is no claim of pretending at the impossible.



What a misquotation! I was only referring your claim about neuroscience above in which you did not show any demonstration of the impossible, pretend or otherwise.

But even then, you contradict yourself. Charlatans do not "pretend" at doing anything - they claim they are doing it for real in order to bilk people.
Yes, they fake the demonstration as fraud, but charlatanry comes in only when they claim to have real power or ability - and have the intent to get money or power.

If they do, in fact, have the "more than normal" ability, then it is not fraudulent and can't be charlatanry.

But this thread is about whether performance magic can lead to an interest in the occult or even metaphysics.
A study or discussion of anything can't be charlatanry, while your making up statistics and misquoting folks probably is.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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Charlatans do "pretend" and if they were not pretending then they would not be charlatans for then they would actually be doing what they seem to be doing for real, so kindly stop talking utter nonsense. Also, will you please stop twisting like a worm on the hook now that I have proved that your statement “But, it can't be charlatanry since there is no claim of pretending at the impossible” was false.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 17, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
97% of neuroscientists agree that characters who pretend to perform impossible feats for anything but entrainment are charlatans.


Image


He is trolling from the global warming thread.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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That is true, although rather obvious to anyone with a brain. It is also true that the charlatans pretend to do magic, much like legit magician do but sometimes the charlatans leave their audience wondering if the magic is real, just like Ken and witch doctors do. That is why Ken tries to tell us that magic is a personal definition and that a fellow leaving people to think his magic, could be real, is not a charlatan when he is.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Alan Wheeler
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Orson Welles tells--on this familiar clip on cold reading--how he was drawn into fortunetelling for day and had a near brush with psychic powers:



Still performing my set of 30 tricks each semester for every class and cycling through about 5 mental magic shows for psychology classes every semester, I recently added demonstrations with pendulums, rune stones, and tarot cards. I was advised by one successful and well-known mentalist-turned-reader that I should avoid all material by mentalists and magicians and study material by shut-eyes, which I did after a few false starts with over-priced e-books and such.

The biography of David Hoy might illuminate this topic as I believe he went into doing real readings in later years.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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Jonathan Townsend
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On Oct 26, 2017, The Hermit wrote:
... Just wondering how many others moved to a more metaphysical worldview from childhood magic.


It's a safe reminder that narrative and personal experience are significant in how one moves in the world... after one chooses how examined a life one wishes to live.
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Cauan
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