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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
...I'm afraid this is one of those posts that I don't understand exactly what it is that you're asking.


No problem. Consider how what you're proposing affects those in Chicago. May as well add "monthly supplies of Soma" to the list and see where this dialogue goes. Let's see where the currents of history are pushing today.


Affects them how?

The police would still have powerful weapons, to use if needed.

The general public would be safer, and through a process of attrition, safer still.
I'm the interim they'd be no less safe, since the average citizen isn't carrying guns.

And if you take away the money from things that would no longer be illegal, you'd have less criminals in the long run.

I don't get the Soma reference.
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R.S.
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On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
I "propose" one handgun and one rifle (for hunting), per adult citizen who -

Passes a THOROUGH federal background check.

Has no current, or previous known mental instability.

A ban on magazines of more than six bullets.

A ban on any device that can be used to convert any gun, for the purpose of making it more powerful than it originally was intended to be.

A ban on all "armor piercing" bullets.

A ban on suppressors.

A ban on violent felons, whether they've served their sentences or not, from obtaining any gun.

A ban on anyone known to be, or suspected of being, a terrorist.

My position is that anyone who says they need more than that needs to explain exactly why, beyond "my right".
(They aren't being used defensively, and people are dying on a regular basis.)

In addition, it's my position is that drugs and prostitution should be legalized to remove some of the income of the criminals who will supposedly get these guns.

Further, there should be strict MANDATORY minimums (40+ years) for anyone who still ends up in possession of these guns, as well as life sentences for anyone for anyone using ANY gun in the commission of a crime.

Further still, my position is that anyone who is afraid that to give an inch on this issue so as
to not go down the slippery slope of "giving up rights" should look around.
NO gun will stop what's already happening.

In conclusion, anyone who thinks they need ANY arsenal, no matter how large, in order to oppose some hypothetical, someday, tyranny is so delusional that they should be added to the above list of those who should be banned from having ANY gun.



Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
landmark
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Quote:
...Chicago...


Quite right that gun control alone will not solve Chicago's problems. It takes much more than just controlling the distribution of guns to lower crime rates; but it is still a necessary step, though not sufficient. To see what else might be indicated, let's figure out what NYC is doing right.
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Jonathan Townsend
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I'm with you on the normative ethics. I feel we're going there in our ethos anyway.
I have doubts about adding legislative and law enforcement pressures to what looks like a symptom rather than simple avoidable risk.
As most of us have stated - we are not at risk in our homes and workplaces due to our own firearms.
Turning a blind eye to collateral damage locally and abroad may haunt us socially though.
Even so, we engage in discussions motivated by the misdirected rage of a very few. Stampede rather than enlightenment.

Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
...
We understand that there is no guarantee of perfect safety, but we're happy to trust the police - as imperfect as they might be.
...



There's a deeper ongoing dialogue - here's a taste:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/12/politics/......dex.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p......ers.html
https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/......nvention
https://govtrackinsider.com/could-2017-b......bce3206b

And we've recently discussed interpreting the Full Faith and Credit clause as regards marriage.

Watch out for some short-term bumps (at great cost) on that road.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
NYCTwister
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The government is supposed to protect the people through legislation, and the enforcement of just laws.

The founders, flawed as they were, were very specific as to the limits of government.
They didn't believe in the keeping of a standing army, so if we're going to interpret them literally how about THAT?

As I've repeatedly said, ALL guns should not be banned, but given what's happening it's past time that the interpretation of the second amendment be revisited.
I highly doubt that, given foreknowledge of the increased power and ease of attainment of what's available today, that they would game left it so vague.

The gun advocates refusal to consider ANY changes to what they interpret it to mean - claiming absolute rights - regardless of the evolution of the weapons and society, amounts to absolute disregard for those who don't think the way they do.

So far their arguments are specious imo.

Unless we're more mentally ill than the rest of the world, then addressing mental illness is not the answer.

Same with good guys with guns.

On and on.

And given that they do more harm even when possessed for defence and you get down to, "MY rights!" and "Prepare for resistance".

What about the rights of the girl, who I understand was a brilliant creative writer and talented athlete, or the young man who had aspirations if swimming in the 2020 Olympics?

They paint a picture that makes it appear like their wishes are the wishes of most of us; but that is FAR from the case.

Show me instances where these high powered weapons are consistently used to prevent death, and I'll listen.
But they can't, so they obfuscate.

There is, of course, a deeper, most meaningful consideration, but I'm unable to go into it lest I step off a cliff.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Theseus to Rorschach,

Please, let's address causes. More strange news and lives lost at a school Smile . Even if we need to disagree about some matter let's value our society for its principles and each other for our perspectives.

So, beyond protecting our property from any impetuses it might have had to rebel long ago or our big business with weapons - what's the fuss? Look at our movies and TV. They don't show the full (and gruesome) consequences of firearms. First things first if you want to argue from reason. Are we discussing the fetish of firearms or the horrors of their use?

Though if you want to discuss insanity: What of all the TV shows and movies which depict a spy as hero? Spies glamorously decked out with fashion and technology... Yet look how we treat whistleblowers.


Over (click)

* footnotes Soma reference is to Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The frame of "Theseus to Rorschach" is from Peter Watts book Blindsight. Jokes about attempting to communicate while on drugs, unconscious or in a Chinese Room... would impair our dialogue.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
I'm all for a greater focus on mental health, but unless your position is that the US is more mentally ill than the countries with almost no gun violence then...it's the...GUNS.

4 percent of the worlds population, 42 percent of the gun violence.

As far as your outrage, and personal attacks, you can blow a gasket for all I care.


I'm guessing you got these numbers from a similar article to this:

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/comme......armament

"Americans make up about 4.4 percent of the global population but own 42 percent of the world’s guns."

'Owning' 42 percent of the world's guns is quite a big difference than 'causing' 42% of worlds gun violence.

If you think the US is the worst country in the world in regards to gun violence, you might want to check out some of our southern neighbors who heavily restrict gun ownership.
NYCTwister
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I do value the principles, and our right to express ourselves.

I'm speaking about the horrors of their use, of course.
I've never gotten the fetish part, though this shooter certainly did.

The causes are many, but one thing can be pointed to that addresses many of them...the guns.

As for popular culture and it's portrayal of violence, and the heroes use of it?
Maybe it speaks to certain mindsets, and maybe those are what need to be changed.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
NYCTwister
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Rockwall,

The U.S. IS the worst when it comes to gun violence, by any metric.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com......s-charts

As far as or neighbours to the south, let's legalize drugs, and then we'll talk about them.

Why do you feel the need for average citizens to have these things?

And, if you want to have a conversation, please respond to everything that's said.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
rockwall
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On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
Rockwall,

The U.S. IS the worst when it comes to gun violence, by any metric.

...


wrong again. (not even close)
rockwall
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The FBI’s statement is below:

On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI’s Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting. Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken. We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.

One way to lower mass shootings would be for the FBI to do a better job of following through on tips I suppose.
NYCTwister
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How so?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
... As for popular culture and it's portrayal of violence, and the heroes use of it?
Maybe it speaks to certain mindsets, and maybe those are what need to be changed.


At its most base - and without recourse to any convolutions of language - what do we present as model for and depiction of good?

With that in mind - what do you want to change? The model, the depiction, perhaps some thing itself?
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NYCTwister
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On Feb 16, 2018, rockwall wrote:
The FBI’s statement is below:

On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI’s Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting. Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken. We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.

One way to lower mass shootings would be for the FBI to do a better job of following through on tips I suppose.


A thorough check before he bought the gun would have been better.

Better STILL, would be to get rid of the GUNS.
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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 16, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
... As for popular culture and it's portrayal of violence, and the heroes use of it?
Maybe it speaks to certain mindsets, and maybe those are what need to be changed.


At its most base - and without recourse to any convolutions of language - what do we present as model for and depiction of good?

With that in mind - what do you want to change? The model, the depiction, perhaps some thing itself?


The model and the depiction.

We could change the moral direction.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Here's the story folks see now:
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-......-florida

I have no idea how the parents of those children - and the parents who lost children in Oklahoma City in 1995 or Newtown CT in 2012 - will feel better now that our FBI has made a statement which includes the word "improvement".

http://www.ajc.com/news/national/nikolas......KATajZP/

The cone of silence descends - unwilling people and their families taken from living commonality and connection into history. Parkland FL, 2018 Smile Smile
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R.S.
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If the problem is mental illness (and no doubt, that's a part of the problem), then why did the POTUS revoke a mental illness gun law?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP6XPPx9cWU

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jonathan Townsend
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On Feb 17, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
... The laws need to be federal, otherwise the guns will find their way in from states with laws that are more lax - as they do in Chicago....


I disagree. And it looks like you are attempting to legislate morality. Meanwhile you're ignoring some bandwagon processes - which have ugly history.

Arguing for the irrational on behalf of the irrational and claiming justification (and warrant) from a few instances claimed to be irrational (yet backhistory swept away)... is less than rational.

If you have the energy to spare - maybe argue for hemp growing or perhaps less tax subsidy for tobacco growing... something useful. Please.
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NYCTwister
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I'm not jumping up and down, throwing a tantrum, like a four year old.

As for what the people want, it's all over the news. Not everyone of course.

Some of it is highly political so I can no longer get into it, for reasons you can guess.
The students who didn't die spoke some pretty seeing truth to power.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
TomBoleware
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We have a serious ‘people’ problem that has gotten out of hand, and we have reached the point where we can’t see who the real lunatics are. It seems the shooter was screaming for somebody to stop him and nobody listened. Law officials and others were notified many, many times about his behavior and for some reason were not able to do anything. I suspect the PC laws have tied their hands to the point they can’t ask the right questions. Also the FBI was notified several times, but I guess they were too involved in the nonsense Russia/Trump thing to listen.

Troubled people will not follow any new laws we pass, they don’t care about the ones we already have. They need help. But I’m afraid as long as we have people believing things like 'if we legalize drugs and prostitution it will help solve the problem' the problem is only going to get worse.

Tom
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