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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
I will: whatever.
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Inviso Regular user 126 Posts |
If we remove the debate of who's routine is who's for a few minutes, Ray's original critique was valid and correct.
When someone posts a video one would assume they might like suggestions to improve it. With the ease of video recording today, it is well worth the exercise of recording oneself and then reviewing (by oneself or others) with the aim of improving the whole effect. In Craig's video his dirty hand doesn't reach for the purse. This allows him to show a clearly empty hand make an awkward reach for the purse. His dirty hand remains still and looking sheepish that it can't be involved. To many of us it looks obvious but perhaps not to the spectator, and,if nothing else, Craig has highlighted for others that this move could be cleaner. He could have added a moment that allowed him to ditch and clean up so the final reveal is cleaner but maybe his environment made that difficult. I see this as a teachable moment for the rest of us. Ok, back to the debate... Randy |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
A couple of people mentioned that this was a poor use for the Quiver purse I disagree as far too many magicians use it in far more obvious ways. Infact there are many well known and well thought of magicians that get nothing but praise from blatant almost to the point of exposure use of certain gimmicks.
Overall I liked the routine although as others have said I would shorten it myself as it's basically the same thing happening over and over again, also I get the impression from Craig that he wouldn't mind people borrowing from the routine as he posted this same video on a thread I started with regards to C/S/B. Degio you'll soon come to realise that whilst Craig does post here on the Café he rarely follows it up with any replies so you'll be in for a long wait he's more of a hit and run poster these days haha. |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
I think Degio is well within his rights to use this routine, or one similar that he customizes from Craig's. Jim Ferguson, Scott Guinn published his "Pouched CSB" years ago in his ebook "My Best to You - Coins". And by the way, Craig is using a basic CSB set, not a Two Copper One Silver set. The 2 Copper 1 Silver set and basic routine was created by Connie Hayden, and then Pressley Guitar took that set and replaced one copper coin with a Chinese coin with a hole in it. Most published routines go to either the pocket of a gaffed purse for switching. Nothing new here at all and by publishing the routine Craig hasn’t demanded any specific rights. Methinks we sometimes go too far with this possessive "ownership" of very basic sleights and routines!
Thanks! Jim |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
Interesting history. I was wondering who invented the c/s/b set. I was going to ask in a thread if anyone knew. Thanks J-Mac.
I think magicians use the two-copper one-silver set so that the gaff can be used as a c/s coin, but I think a hole in one of the copper coins makes this set really deceptive. In fact, at first, even when I knew how it worked, I still had trouble grasping what exactly was going on. |
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, J-Mac wrote: You think he's "well within his rights" to use Craig's routine ? Wow. So how do you come to this conclusion ? Because the various parts have been done before ? Because there are no new sleights ? Because he can work it out ? Because Craig posted a video of his performance and didn't explicitly say he didn't want folk to steal it ? By that logic we needn't pay any creator for their work. Most effects and routines are variations of older pieces, and contain very little which could be considered new or truly original. And I have never seen a video of a magic performance or trailer which specifically states that no-one can use it if they can work it out. Like I've said previously, it is the routine as a whole that is Craigs. Almost every Spellbound is the same effect, and uses changes that have been done before. But the sequence of moves, the actual ROUTINE, the patter, the particular way of doing the routine, are what make each handling individual - and belong to the magician who put it together. Craig may be using old ideas, but even if every single element and sleight was straight out of Bobos, it still doesn't change the fact that it was he who put those elements together into a routine - and that routine is his. Im not sure what the rest of your post is about. What has Scott Giunns routine got to do with it ? Are you saying Craig was performing Scotts routine ?, or that Scott was the first to use a purse for a CSB routine ? If not then I don't see the relevance to the debate. I also don't understand your "by the way Craig is using a standard CSB set....). It is obvious what he's using, and I haven't said anything to the contrary. Ditto with the history lesson. If you and Ray feel its OK to use others pet routines without permission, and to justify it with the "reasons" being discussed, then that is your prerogative. Personally I think others routines are THEIR routines. And without paying for, or getting some sort of permission, I have no right to use those routines. And Ray, thank you for your rather dismissive reply to my genuine request. If this really isn't Craigs routine (as in its someone elses), then please post an example of someone performing the ENTIRE ROUTINE prior to Craig's performance. Or please reference the book or DVD or whatever the routine is published in. Jim |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
Jim Ferguson, get off your high horse. Craig published this and there isn't any secret to what he showed. It's all common stuff. I doubt you are speaking for Craig here. Let him come here and post or contact me directly IF he has a problem over what I posted. I mentioned Scott's routine because it is basically the same and was published long before.
Also, I would bet I've purchased more magic - mostly directly from the creators themselves - than many members here, so enough of the high and mighty talk. Finally, this isn't a debate; it's a discussion in a public forum. That's all from me! Have a nice day! Jim |
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts |
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On Apr 2, 2018, J-Mac wrote: You are correct, I'm not speaking directly for Craig. I do not know, nor have I ever met him. I would be saying the exact same things though, regardless of whos performance it was. So that's your argument - I say its wrong to steal folks routines, and give my reasons, and your reply is that I think I'm "high and mighty", I've to "get off my high horse", and you've bought more stuff than most ? Well congratulations on your legitimate purchases, it still doesn't make stealing others routines right. Jim |
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NicholasD Inner circle 1458 Posts |
I certainly don't consider anyone's use of this relatively basic routine to be stealing. Don't get me wrong, it's very nicely constructed. If Mr. Petty wanted to keep this to himself, I suspect that he wouldn't have shared it because he surely realizes that it's easy to reconstruct.
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
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On Apr 1, 2018, J-Mac wrote: Nothing to do with the debate that led up to this post, but just for the record, my routine was first published in "Great Scott! It's Magic! Volume 2:Coins" in, IIRC (I don't have a copy in front of me) 1999, with a 2nd, expanded edition of the same book in 2003. It was republished in "My Best to You - Coins" in 2009. I was surely not the first to use a purse for a CSB routine, but as far as I know, I was the first to publish a routine with the specific type of pouch I use, an idea I got (although not applied to CSB) from John Bannon, who had a section in one of his books, "Real Men Don't Carry Purses." Now, regarding the debate that led up to this, here's my unsolicited two cents: Anybody who's been around magic for more than a couple of minutes understands that if you post a video on the Internet, people are going to reconstruct/deconstruct/modify/copy it. If you don't want anybody to "steal" your stuff, there's a simple enough solution--don't post it online! I have a few videos online, and all of my ebooks (to which Chris at Lybrary now owns the rights), and you'll find a lot of it on those rip-off torrent download sites, and guys will share the files with friends. When you put something out there, you know that's going to happen, and there's not much you can do about it, other than hope that the honest folks will actually purchase it, and actually study and learn it before foisting it on the public. But if I have something I don't want "stolen," I don't release it, and I especially don't post demo videos of it (the lazy guys don't bother to read, but they'll soak up videos all day every day). I'm not saying this is right. I'm saying it's a fact, and everyone knows it's a fact, so if you don't want it to happen, don't put the routine out there. It's not right for someone to steal your brand new Corvette convertible, either, but if you leave it parked on the road with the top down and the keys in the ignition, what do you expect is going to happen? TTFN
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Craig Petty V.I.P. UK 2298 Posts |
Wow. Guys I don’t release routines any more. I was just posting. A trick with gaffed coins that I enjoy performing in a forum about gaffed coin magic. The video was originally recorded for laymen so obviously I’m not going into crediting during the video and I was just sharing it here so you guys could see it.
I don’t plan on publishing this or anything again and I appreciate the critique I will be taking it on board. My advice would be to chill out. I remember when you could post a video of you performing a trick for fun without it turning into a multi page thread about ethics. Seriously chill out and thank you for the kind words and critique. It helps. |
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts |
In that case I apologise for cluttering up your thread Craig.
I make no apologies however, for my point of view as expressed in this thread. I also think that the posts which have been "liked" in this thread speaks volumes about the attitudes towards intellectual property in this craft - brotherhood my eye. Jim |
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videoman Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Craig, I enjoyed your routine and handling.
In regards to those who felt it had too many phases, that is obviously personal preference, but I would disagree in this case. I feel that is sometimes a little bit of magicians' thinking because laymen often love seeing these sorts of things a couple of times. It’s an entirely different experience seeing something for the first time (while your brain is being fried) as opposed to a magician who may be familiar with what is going on and watching something for the thousandth time. That’s not to say that routines cannot be too long or overdone because often times they are. But in this instance I think there was enough difference to justify the phases and I believe specs would enjoy it and it would add to their amazement. I have long performed a routine similar to Craig's and the reaction his received in the video is pretty typical to what I usually receive, which is why I keep doing it with as many phases as I do. Each one builds on the other. |
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