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Hideo Kato Inner circle Tokyo 5649 Posts |
It does not mean the magician was not good at Classic Pass. Any Passes can be visible if done for a large audience.
Basically, Pass can be more visible from a distance. The fault was that he thought Classic Pass could be used in such condition. Hideo Kato |
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chronica Loyal user France 94 Vitry s/s 246 Posts |
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On 2009-04-18 05:55, Lawrence O wrote: Thanks for teaching us your move . What looks nice is that your pass is very slow comparing to most of the others that have to be done quickly. You just have your little break to hide. Or what you think about pulling the selection a little from behind before dropping the deck a little messy on the table, then cut the part on top of the selection and then square the 2 packets the spectator has to shuffle ? |
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frimuraren12 New user 69 Posts |
I think the pass is overrated.
I have seen some of the "Pass" masters performing the pass, and if you were looking you would see it when they did it, some of my lay friends did also see it but were to polite to say anything. The pass can be a good move, but why risk getting busted? If someone is looking they will see something. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
For me, it is a Mallory kind of thing, "because it's there". I love to practice the pass, but reluctant to use it for large groups...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Voldemort Special user Florida 562 Posts |
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On 2010-05-22 07:23, frimuraren12 wrote: If you can't do it correctly, Then absolutely do not use it. The overrated thing is your opinion, But maybe the "Masters" your talking about aren't as masterful as you think.
"Flight from death"
Buy the WILD AT HEART e-book to help Rachael Columbini here: http://www.lybrary.com/wild-heart-p-76110.html |
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frimuraren12 New user 69 Posts |
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On 2010-05-22 09:36, Voldemort wrote: I can do it. But seriously, do you really think a pass can be 100 invisible when burned? If its the classic pass we are talking about. |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
I use many different types of passes so I cannot say it is overrated. However, I tend to agree with someone who IS a master at the MANY MANY passes, Dr. Ken Krenzel, who has said that using the pass to control one card is overkill. Yes, I do use it, but there are other ways equally as wonderful that meet the criteria of no manipulation after the card is pushed flush.
Lately I have been looking at three beautiful controls that look SO clean and are so burnable. Two of them are used by David Regal, and one by Harry Lorayne. What the spectator sees is the card pushed into the deck, very deliberately. I think that is hazy enough to get some folks researching if they want I am ALSO a HUGE fan of the Side Steal. While this sleight may have been invented as some have claimed as an easier alternative to the Pass, It nonetheless is a BEAUTIFUL move. It is of course now a mainstay in card magic, and Paul Cummins' work on it is, IMHO, necessary study for mastery of this very clean and versatile sleight. Scott Guinn's GUB also fulfills the criterion that no manipulation is done after the card is pushed flush. The Convincing Control, Jennings' Open Control, LePaul's Spread Pass and Lorayne's approach are also beautiful, and these two are Masters. The sleights I have listed CAN be burned IF executed perfectly. But to answer the question of whether the CP can be burned is one I cannot answer. Master Hideo has stated in a post that passes become more visible at distance (paraphrase). But the thread states: "The Pass -- Worst Sleight Ever". It's not clear to me after reading five pages of posts whether or not this question has any validity. It would be like stating: "The Side Steal -- Best Sleight Ever". I am not going to go into the reasons why. It should be obvious. Ahimsa, Vlad |
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Nosher Loyal user 261 Posts |
I think we should have another sticky for the pass, just like the one we have for the double lift.
It could say "The pass is a useful sleight. If you don't like it, don't use it."
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On 2010-05-22 11:14, Nosher wrote: Well said Nosher! Ahimsa, Vlad |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2004-04-26 22:50, turnerhooch wrote: It's just a tool - a basic resource. When you can use it effectively in routine you'll find it's about as helpful as a TT or a ] coin.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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frimuraren12 New user 69 Posts |
The problem I have with the pass is that lots of magicians have made it out to be "The move", a move that separates you from the tricksters and the real magicians.
If you don't like the pass? Well then you suck and your lazy and just does not want to put the time in. You tell them that you worked on the pass but found other alternatives that suits you better? Well then you also suck, you clearly don't understand magic and your just lazy, nothing beats the pass! that's the problem I have with it, you can do great without it. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
I think you need to change peer groups! I have many friend that have wicked cool passes and they have NEVER given me any grief over not having a good one!
MMc |
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
"show me one trick trck you think that cant be done without a pass and I show you a easier one"
ok.. lets go.. "Acrobatic Jacks" by Erdnase from Expert at the Card table.. Also known as Cavorting Aces.. show me the non pass version of it please. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2010-05-22 10:01, frimuraren12 wrote: If they're burning your hands, then you're not a competent Sleight of Hand performer. It's a lot more than doing moves or tricks. Controlling the attention and minds of the audience at all times is what makes you good-- not being able to do stuff "while they burn your hands". SEY |
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frimuraren12 New user 69 Posts |
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On 2010-05-22 20:30, MichielTummers wrote: But who cares if you cant do like 1 trick? Its not even a trick that laymen cares much about. |
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
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On 2010-05-23 02:49, frimuraren12 wrote: a) the trick is a classic. With good presentation laymen will care about it. I used it more then one time b) my point is that there ARE tricks that are better when done with a shift then without, just use the effects you want to do and make the right decisions regarding sleights. |
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Matze Loyal user 235 Posts |
When you get fairly good at the pass,its so easy and quick,you don't even wanna be using another control for most effects...just have a card selected and returned,do the pass,and a millisecond later you end clean with the card on top
its quite effective |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On 2010-05-23 06:35, Matze wrote: Hi Matze, I agree that the pass IS effective. But, having said that, there are other controls that are equally effective. The Pass however is also very useful for other applications. As Michiel pointed out, effects like Cavorting Aces depend on it. So, I will say that the Pass is versatile for many things. Strictly as a control of one card however, I cannot agree, at least for my purposes that it is the only means I find valuable. Bedwell's Dribble Control and Vinny Marini's Toss are powerfully deceptive. If you watch Harry Loyane's Ambitious Card routine, there is a move in it that is a VERY deceptive control. David Regal has a beautiful control that seems to be a cousin of it. Scott Guinn's GUB is one of the most utilitarian sleights I have ever "not seen" it's that good. I have already mentioned the Side Steal, the Convincing Control, and Jennings' Open Control. So I pose a question: If the CP is SO good, why have magicians created so many variants (and I am not talking just about "easier" variants)? The Top Card Cover Pass for instance could be argued as mechanically a little more difficult. The Hermann Pass is beautiful and in the right circumstances is beautiful. The Graveyard Shift is a splendid pass and CAN be used in as many applications as the CP. (The latter two are arguably "easier" than the CP) We have Riffle Passes, Dribble Passes, and Passes that fail on women. (Sorry, just seeing if anyone is reading this ) The list goes on too. Cervon's Free Turn, Frank Thompson's Rocking Horse Pass, The K-E (Krenzel-Elliott) Pass, Marlo's exhaustive work on the pass, Steven Youell's work, LePaul, Lorayne, Fisher, Andrus etc. Certain effects require not only controlling a card but also get it into a particular "state" for lack of a better term. Aronson's Head Over Heels is a perfect example. I am glad Steven Youell hopped into the discussion. His observation is so very true. Re-read it again I am not denying in the least that the Pass is an excellent sleight in ANY of its variations or the original CP. But, while I would not have titled the thread "The Pass -- Worst Sleight Ever" as the OP did, I would argue that he has pointed out that the Pass HAS gained a reputation for being a benchmark that delineates the accomplished magician from the mere "trickster." It is a means, and yes, one of the most efficient means extant for certain applications. Yet, many of the top card people in the world do not use it exclusively. Hypothetical question to add to my earlier question: Could a valid argument be made that we are so "close" to our work that we can no longer see what we do from the layperson's perspective? I have seen some of the BEST in real performing situations use a TCTTT and FRY laypersons with whatever effect they might be performing at the time. The argument is made that the spectators "know" you are doing something when using a TCTTT for example. I could just as easily state that they ALSO "know" you are doing "something" when merely shuffling - even when you ARE merely shuffling!! I must be possessed by Annemann! But will I call a Priest and have him exorcized from me? NEVER. Effect is everything and method matters insofar as it contributes to maximization of the impact of the effect. The focus purely on moves to the exclusion of other skills such as effective directed attention, presentation, etc., IMHO is detrimental to one's "vocabulary" as a performer. So, are we running when we are not being chased? Do we get rid of jog shuffles? Should the double undercut be relegated to the dustbin? How about the Braue Reversal? There is a LOT of manipulation at work there and yet, it is an EFFECTIVE and DECEPTIVE tool. Please understand I am offering these questions and observations as a means to continue the discussion. Ahimsa, Vlad |
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Laurent van Trigt Regular user 160 Posts |
I precede the classic force with a classic pass rather than cutting the cards in full view. Do I need that? Absolutely not. But I believe strong magic lies in the little details, and if you add that sort of detail throughout your work you will get a better outcome and look like a better magician. Knowing the pass (any pass for that matter) is no requirement to do card magic of course, and you will indeed find ways around to replace them in many occasions (though not all, as mentioned above). But sooner or later you will find that it is the best pick for a particular routine in a particular context.
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
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On 2010-05-23 02:49, frimuraren12 wrote: WHAT??????? You ask for ONE, he gives you ONE fantastic example that has been and is done by many big name workers that I've seen entertain and fool both magician and laymen! Good grief! Might I assume the 12 in you screen name indicates your age? MMc |
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