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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts 
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On Jul 24, 2018, stoneunhinged wrote: Does omniscience necessarily include precognition? |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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I think so. But not being omniscient, I'm not sure.
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, stoneunhinged wrote: Nor am I. However, I think that if someone knew every state of everything up to and including this moment, few would argue that that someone isn't omniscient. I certainly wouldn't, and I think that I'd steer clear of that someone. Just in case. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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Back to my point: a programmer needn't be omniscient. By "god-like" I mean "creator-like." I'm postulating a Deist conception of God. The programmer/God sets up the simulation, not knowing all outcomes, and runs it to see what happens.
It's certainly not the God my father used to preach about, but it's rationally feasible. I think. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, stoneunhinged wrote: Time is just part of the simulation. The operator would be outside of time as we know it. Omniscience would be a given, I think. |
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts
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I am not so sure. I believe that there are schools of theology today that hold that the deity's knowledge is absolute with respect to the past and the present, but not with respect to the future. That is one way to accommodate "free will," which, of course, is difficult to reconcile if the future is known.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, 0pus wrote: There is no future or past to a being that is not a part of this universe. Time is simply a measurement. Future and Past are always relative. |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts
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In terms of a deity, I believe that's likely accurate, that God transcends time.
If the universe is simulated, however, it is reasonable to assume that it is modeled from the "real" universe; therefore, it too may be constrained by time. The time-spans of the simulated universes however may be very different. Imagine if we constructed a machine that could simulate the entire universe--people, planets, nebula, everything. Assuming we had the computing power, we could run that simulation from big bang to the big crunch (billions of years in simulated time) in a few seconds. We would be able to tweak initial conditions of life (think Einstein's cosmological constant) and see the outcomes for a vast number of possible universes. Each simulation will have started and ended in the blink of an eye. So, in a way, we would be outside of time compared to the simulated beings. Because of this, we wouldn't be able to affect anything in the simulation in realtime. We would only be able to examine the data after-the-fact.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, stoneunhinged wrote: That's a main idea of the theory. Well said. The whole point to running the simulation is to see what the outcomes will be. After a few million or billion simulations you are in a better position to analyze the data. Possibly even to get a glimpse of your own universe's possible fate(s), and perhaps running enough simulations will give you the ability to avoid an unpleasant end.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, stoneunhinged wrote: In the language of folks who talk about computers: What if it's time to apply updates to the operating system? Is the anti-virus/anti-malware software up to date? When was the last scan? And what to do with any items that scan turns up? Quarantine? Delete**? There were some Twilight Zone type show episodes where people wake up to a world that's been updated somehow. Describing the universe (rather than ones inner perception of being) as external computational process... that exploration may not uniquely lead to a place folks like. For example, situations where there's no shared sense of time such as Greg Egan's "Permutation City". Whether someones preferred inner narrative helps them get along in the world or among others who have their own inner narratives is an open question. ** Peter Watts has also explored some "what ifs" in his novels including "Echopraxia". Here's a snipit of the fun from there. Quote: What was it Lianna had said? We've always thought c and friends ruled supreme, out to the quasars and beyond. What if they're just some kind of local ordinance? []What if they're a bug? [] Reality's iterating everywhere but there're these inconsistencies. Maybe not the right reality, mmm? Change alpha a just bit and the universe stops supporting life. Maybe alpha's wrong. Maybe life's just a parasitic offshoot of a corrupted OS. They know God exists already that's old. I think now they're trying to figure what to do with It.[]Maybe worship. Maybe disinfect
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Interesting discussion.
I wish I could participate but I'm happy to just read and learn. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, Steven Keyl wrote: Well, maybe the simulation isn't being "run" to accomplish anything. Maybe its just amusing like blowing bubbles... |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Are we back to the tale of a butterfly dreaming?
The Stross question about just how much the world is affected by apperception (computation) stands. There's also an ethical question. From the same book by Watts Quote: which brings up what it means to savor the experience of another sapient being... how much for a million instance/hours of (whose?) high quality emotional experience?... was the universe a hologram or a simulation? Was its boundary a program or merely an interface and if the latter, what sat on the other side, watching it run? ...Computation, after all, implied a problem not yet solved, insights not yet achieved. There was really only one sort of program for which foreknowledge of the outcome didn't diminish the point of the exercise, ...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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On Jul 24, 2018, S2000magician wrote: ... There appear to be some limits in our model about how confident/certain one can be about how much information and when. And even then cosmic rays might zap the computer memory or a wire during runtime. 
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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On Jul 28, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I knew that you were going to say that. |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts
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On Jul 27, 2018, Pop Haydn wrote: True. We will revisit a movie or book or song even though we've experienced it before. Why not revisit a fun simulation even if the outcome is known. It very well might just be for entertainment value.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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On Jul 29, 2018, Steven Keyl wrote: It gets even more interesting when the book's author or the movie's producer decides to alter the work. Or when the IP owner decides to restart the story while ignoring some of their authorized/licensed story elements - say Star Wars or Star Trek.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts
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Belief in Simulation is a dangerous cultish premise.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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On Aug 2, 2018, Mr Salk wrote: How do you mean? As a belief system or as a hypothetical? |
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts
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On Aug 2, 2018, Pop Haydn wrote: A belief system. Nothing wrong with The Matrix as a thought experiment. Attempting to actually escape from it is dangerous.
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Are we living inside of a simulation? (9 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jul 24, 2018 05:12 pm 
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