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JasonEngland
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The funny thing about the MacMillan turnover switch is that it is not now, and never has been touted as a "real" cheating move. It was created by a magician that never played a game of cards in his life, was published in a magic book, and is used primarily in pseudo-demonstrations of gambling moves by myself and the other half-dozen people that do this move well.

You may as well critique back palming as an ineffective method of holding out at the table.

Why is it that no one noticed that the "Blackjack Switch" couldn't be done on a real blackjack table? Because it's done fast? Give me a break. That move is as useless as the MacMillan at the card table. Show me a casino where they'll let you sweep your hand in from 2 feet away and not even look at the cards! It's a made-up move for the camera...that's all.

In fact, they're almost all "B.S." moves in the opening scenes of Shade. Only the bottom or greek deal is of any use at the card table.

If you thought otherwise, or if you thought we thought otherwise, you are mistaken.

Jason England
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
T. Joseph O'Malley
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Hi Jason,

I understand what you're saying, but we should also presuppose this as well: I imagine that even if you did have quote unquote real cheating moves that are in use in games (i'm not calling this into question), you wouldn't have put it right in the movie. I've never seen you perform (well other than the Shade stuff on film that you mentioned), so please excuse my postulations, but I'd imagine that if you were taught little known gambling cheat moves by hustlers, etc, you'd be reluctant to post them in a movie that has nationwide distribution for all to see...as well as on a web board that can be accessed and read by anyone - the "don't bite the hand that feeds" line of thought. Again no disrespect intended.

As an aside, I was astounded at the number of folks who wanted to learn "Zapped" (or whatever we call the old Marlo trick now) as shown in the movie credits, so they could "move" in a game with it...

Tristan O'
tjo'
braunmagic
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Jason, Altho I agree with what you are saying I have never seen anyone use back palming in a gambling demo. If its dressed like a duck and everyone is told its a duck well you get my point. After all it was a movie about cheating at the table, not about fooling people in to believing you can cheat at the table.

When it comes to truely switching card in a game would anyone wait untill the moment when everyone at the table is watching? Only if they are in it for the fame I guess.

Just my thoughts,
Brent Braun

P.S. Doc I don't think this thread is long enough. I personaly never get tired of hearing your stories.
T. Joseph O'Malley
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Quote:
On 2004-06-18 19:51, braunmagic wrote:
Only if they are in it for the fame I guess.


I don't know that anyone truly wants the accolades that come with that sort of fame (usually involves a blackjack and I don't mean the game).
tjo'
bishthemagish
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I think the question has been answered - Would a real cheat write this... Well... Yes...

This has been one of the most interesting threads in the Cafť... Doc points out many things. Like how he would cold deck not on his deal. Some great stuff that should be in a book...

Thank you for the inside stories Doc...
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
JasonEngland
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Again, I don't think it makes much sense to critique a move in a gambling context that was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move.

Did anyone complain that the "Juice" deck we used in Shade had a big "8" on the back instead of the dots and lines system that real juice decks have? No. Why? Because most people realized that this was done for the benefit of the members of the audience that had no idea what real juice looks like.

We did the exact same thing with the moves. They were done to show what is theoretically possible with a deck of cards to a group of people who don't already know.

It's possible to switch a single card with one hand in the act of turning another face-down card face up. We wanted to get this across to the audience. So, we put a switch that could accomplish this in the film! Nevermind that the card came out a little warped from the grip (Kem cards won't). Never mind that the move wouldn't be done when the whole room is watching. If you think that average audience member picked up on these things you're wrong.

You guys are insisting that a move conform to card table procedures and contexts that we just didn't care about as long as it looked plausible to non-experts.

If something is presented as "real" to people who should know better, then by all means critique away. But otherwise, you're preaching to the choir on this one.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Paul H
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Hi Doc,

I'm feeling very new to cards at the moment having just returned after a 25 year absence. I wonder if you could help me understand a couple of points made earlier. Firsly, you mention that the faro and riffle shuffle stacking methods are equivalent. I'm going to be bold and query this with you. If say, four people are playing and the relevent cards are correctly arranged for stacking, would not the riffle method have the advantage of economy and flexibility? With sufficient skill, the deck could be riffle stacked in 'one' hit. If you were short, a second riffle could correct this. This can also be used for three, four five and possibly even six players. The faro would definitely require two perfect shuffles in our four player game with no margin for error. Also, unless you disguised it, the faro itself is likely to draw attention to itself because it is possibly well known at the card table. The riffle, on the other hand is more a standard and therefore acceptible/deceptive table shuffle. Of course, I may be completely off beam here, but I wondered what further thoughts you have on this.

Secondly, I am starting out learning the bottom deal from the book Gene Maze and the Art of the Bottom Deal. This is a fantastic book in my view and I can't for the life of me understand why it is out of print!!! But don't get me started on that. Anyway, I noticed you used the term 'knuckle flash' and I wondered what this referred to. I know well the dreaded 'left finger flash' effect from my fruitless time with the Expert Card Technique method but I can't seem to find a clear definition of the knuckle flash. Any enlightenment would be much appreciated. Like many others here, I find your insights and narrative valuable and absorbing.

Warm Regards,

Paul H
Kevin Ram
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If you are going to R/Stack one card in one shuffle yeh,but stacking three of a kind in one shuffle is a bit ambitious to say the least..lol

The best idea would be to stack a card on each shuffle i.e 3 R/shuffles stacks 3 cards.

In the Perfect shuffle it doesn't need to be perfect as you would only stack the top stock.

Providing your tabled faro looks like a riffle shuffle it would fly as long as you don't have a major get ready tell and you start sweating pints and you pick up a towel and wipe your hands dry before each shuffle and have a grin on your face when you did it....lol.

The gene maze book is a good book. Finger flash means your fingers on the side of the deck dipping as you remove the bottom card.
I've also heard it called 'banana fingers'.

When you deal a card quickly the fingers will dip and then go back to thier original position, which will result in a flash.

Hope this helps.

p.s. Try international magic in london, they might have a copy. Also, try a search as these topics are always discussed
"Your the Italian stallion" As said by my g/friend
T. Joseph O'Malley
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OK Mr England, well fine, but please explain how you possibly think the Siamese Second Deal could EVER pass at the card table?! I tried it last night but my partner wasn't there so I was left holding the deck if you know what I mean...talk about collusion confusion.

(...this is a joke in case anyone thinks I'm being disrespectful).

I very much enjoyed your insights and deftness on the "extras" of that movie.
tjo'
Paul H
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Hi kukram,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify things a bit. I still think it is feesable to stack three of a kind in one riffle as long as the cards to be stacked are already at the top. But maybe I'm being unrealistic. I mean I have never played cards professionally and if you really have to riffle and stack at the speed of light then you may be right. Perhaps Doc can comment?

I already have a copy of the Gene Maze book which I highly recommend and I know first hand what the left finger flash/bannana fingers look like. I took your advice and did a search and came up with an earlier 'Doc post' about someone called Igor and his protruding middle finger during the bottom deal. It sounds like 'finger flash' and 'knuckle flash' are the same thing.

Regards,

Paul H
Expertmagician
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You can also Surgically remove your middle finger to guarantee that you do not flash and provide easy access to the bottom card.

I heard that old riverboat gamblers did this Smile

Magically yours,
Jeff
Long Island,

New York
T. Joseph O'Malley
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That's so sad. If only Marlo had been alive back then...
tjo'
Tielie
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Can you explain that?
If one would really consider doing this, it would be *** funny to see 8 people play poker, for of them missing a middle finger Smile
Deal cards, not drugs!
Paul H
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Hi Jeff,

Very good, most amusing.

Regards,

Paul H
Kevin Ram
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Hi Paul,

It is possible to stack 3 in one shuffle. If you preset breaks and free drop it would be a little easier.

By your posts I gather your not talking about a demo.#

I don't think any hustler would attempt stacking 2 cards in one shuffle at the table. I have never seen anyone do it to pass in knowing company, most guys do it for demo.

I may be wrong, and if someone can do it deceptively maybe they'll post it here.

IM 110% sure that no one would attempt 3 in one shuffle under fire. Ha! That would be suicide!

Also you don't have to stack at the speed of light, just at your normal shuffle speed.

Check out Darwin Ortiz videos. He has a mellow style of handling cards and his stacking is decptive. He's the best riffle stacker I've ever seen! Anything other than your normal way of shuffling will draw too much attention.

Cheers

kukram
"Your the Italian stallion" As said by my g/friend
Paul H
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Thanks kukram, and you are probably right about the riifle stack. I'll check out some of Darwin Ortiz's stuff but he will probably be behind Steve Forte's gambling protection series. So many Video's, DVD's, books, so little money!! It is a pity there is no sign of the Forte series coming out on DVD.

Warm Regards,

Paul H
Kevin Ram
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The Forte tapes are on NTSC format. I'm from the UK, and I have a new video recorder and it works.

I got the Forte and Ortiz card cheating tape too. The Forte tapes will be the best buy you will ever make, believe me(if your into the gambling sleights anyway).

The Ortiz tape comes a very close second and the only reason being that there's more stuff on the Forte tapes.

Ortiz even does the center deal deceptively!

Great investments

Enjoy

kukram
"Your the Italian stallion" As said by my g/friend
Unknown419
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Hello to all, I'm back in full swing with my Mac again. My power cord was broke and the one for the car charger was taking much too long to recharge my laptop. This is the reason for the delay in me writing many of you back.

Now as for answering some of your questions I will do now.

Kukram I donít have any stories of the first time I was introduced to the top card and dice guys that would be relevant here. Iím a hustler not a magician so the names of the top magicians doesnít really matter to me in the least. It would make no difference to me if I were in front of Michael Ammar or you; if you can show me a good magic trick you got my attention.

Bottom Line, a layman doesnít care about technique because they donít know what to look for anyway, all they care about is if the trick was a good trick. Iím a layman that can do tricks, but the better tricks go right over my head like they do the rest of the public.

But on another note I would like to say that I would prefer to meet you rather than a regular magician because you have an interest in gambling moves in which Iím interested in.

Riffle Stacking

Paul thanks for writing. I would like to say that even though I can do a decent riffle stack if necessary, this is not one of my specialties. I believe Andrew or Kukram can answer this question for you better than I.

For the Record to those interested, I used to practice the Dad Stevenís Control and then after culling the 3 cards to the top of the deck I would then proceed to riffle stack. I also learned the double duke but since I was never able to attain the level of proficiency at doing this ruse, I gave up on practicing it because this took too long to do at the card table and therefore wasnít logical for me to do. Steve told me that he had the exact same dilemma when trying to master the technique.

Bottom Line, even though this control was unobtainable by us, donít give up on trying to master this because we didnít succeed.

The Knuckle Flash and a Surgically Remove Finger.

The Removed Finger

Jeff would you cut off your middle finger to do a bottom deal just to find out later on in life that the guy who taught you was doing it the wrong way from the beginning? Magicians believe anything, especially if another magician tells him that itís true; we live and learn.

For argument sake say there was a gambler that had an amputated middle finger and did a bottom deal, would all gamblers on a riverboat do this? No. Why? This would be a definite tale-tell sign to all who would sit down to play that he is a bottom dealer. To me, and this is only my opinion, that this is definitely another lie told by a magician(s) so that he could awe his audience into believing that heís an authority or an expert card cheat because he can do a bottom deal while still having his middle finger.

The Knuckle Flash

The knuckle flash and the left finger flash to me is the same thing. When a person is doing a bottom deal and uses this push-off technique, the finger must bend flashing the knuckle while pushing out the card from the bottom in order for the other hand to take it,

I would direct those whoís interested to particular videos on the market showing you what I mean but it would be taken by many as me bashing the performer instead of a teaching them or the public and since Iím already getting too much heat already, silence at this point is golden.

Bottom Line, because of status, pride and resentment, Iím not allowed to teach and show you the correct way it is suppose to be done.

Scafidi and Ed Marlo

Scafidi, if Marlo was back then we would have never learned from him because in my opinion he would have been killed when he tried to do his bottom. I hope Marlo doesnít try to come back and haunt me for saying this but on his Cardician Video when Marlo demonstrates his Cigar Bottom, his fingers drop so low that you canít help but know that he did a bottom deal and the bad thing about it, when he finishes doing the move, he sits back as if he did it perfectly. I then said to myself maybe itís because of the cigar so after saving up enough money to purchase the Seconds, Centers and Bottoms video, I knew that I was going to see the best teacher ever doing this move on this subject besides Dai because of his book of the same title; but to my surprise I was very disappointed in this version too.

Bottom Line, many who wrote me privately know that Ed Marlo is one of my favorite all time magicians ever but his bottom deal nor his middle deal was his specialty in my book even though he did an excellent job in writing the Seconds, Centerís and Bottoms book in which I practiced from daily while learning all of my deals.

Note: Even though I was disappointed at this video I learned a whole lot from Ed Marlo on a lot of things. If you want to learn how to cheat study Marloís stuff. All the cheats taught Marlo and out of all the magicians, Marlo was the only one that caught on the quickest and learned how to do the cheating moves the best.

Your Friend

Doc
tommy
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On the basis that you should know your enemy guys like Doc might be well advised to get this.
Casino Surveillance Operations Manual
http://www.casinosurveillancenews.com/indicators.htm
http://www.casinosurveillancenews.com/bookstore.htm

Also I read this at some place.

"The equipment is only as good as the people behind it," said George Lewis, a Las Vegas surveillance consultant and author of "Casino Surveillance, The Eye that Never Blinks." Lewis, an 18-year veteran of the surveillance field, teaches at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas' International Gaming Institute. "It's getting tougher because we've overbuilt (in Las Vegas). We're starving for good operators."
"The hand is quicker than the eye but it's not quicker than videotape," Carroll said. "You can only watch so much. You're not going to catch them all, but eventually they all get caught. They get greedy, that's how they get caught."

"We're starving for good operators."

This is very true. In England I think they have starved to death from what I can see. I was in a casino on Friday which has five empty poker tables not for the lack of players but they could not get an experienced dealer. Clients can not deal if they are playing. The players do not want to deal in cash games, they want to be dealt to. They want a dealer who can deal to a good standard. Dealing is not as easy as just shooting the cards around. You have to be able to sort the side pots and know the rules etc you have to be fast and sure of what your doing.
I was not going to deal, I went there to play.
I wonder how good are the eye in the sky operators in places like this these days. I would not be that surprised to find out they have not a clue what they are looking for. "It's getting tougher because we've overbuilt (in Las Vegas). We're starving for good operators." that's in Vegas, there is an explosion of casinos in England. Guys like Doc could fill there boots. I am very tempted to myself to get a patner and become an all knowing dealer.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2004-06-19 13:46, kukram wrote:
Hi Paul,

It is possible to stack 3 in one shuffle. If you preset breaks and free drop it would be a little easier.

By your posts I gather your not talking about a demo.#

I don't think any hustler would attempt stacking 2 cards in one shuffle at the table. I have never seen anyone do it to pass in knowing company, most guys do it for demo.

I may be wrong, and if someone can do it deceptively maybe they'll post it here.

IM 110% sure that no one would attempt 3 in one shuffle under fire. Ha! That would be suicide!

Also you don't have to stack at the speed of light, just at your normal shuffle speed.

Check out Darwin Ortiz videos. He has a mellow style of handling cards and his stacking is decptive. He's the best riffle stacker I've ever seen! Anything other than your normal way of shuffling will draw too much attention.

Cheers

kukram


There's no real point in these multi-card stacks being discussed outside of demonstrations. Shuffle the deck once in any reasonable game and you'll most likely be told to shuffle some more.

Only arena where it maybe semi-applicable is in casinos or card rooms that have specific shuffle procedures. But even then, you're stacking 2 cards, 3 at the most.

Re: speeds and so forth, most people shuffle at a fairly quick pace, i.e. the rate the cards drop off the thumbs. I'm of the belief that the stacks should be done rather fast, as a super-slow riffle just looks fishy, least to me; you're either peeking cards or doing something naughty. But, that hesitation during the riffle will almost always be present. It's *** hard to eliminate or minimize, but I certainly think it can be done Smile.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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