Hi Doc,

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply. As always, your answers have stimulated further lines of enquiry. I'm now on the trail of the 'dad Stevens' riffle cull and control. Also, thanks to Mr Z for your helpful insights on the riffle stack.

Warm Regards,

Paul H

I have only found 1 method for performing the Dad Steven's control (which I have used for years). I did not know he had a cull.

Do you know the source, if it is in print ?

Thanx !

Magically yours,
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

This is pioneering terretory for me. I am going on a post by kukram who suggests a control and a riffle cul. He may be able to provide a source. He posted his comments in the thread 'Dad Stevens' here,

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;forum=2

Regards,

Paul H

Critiquing Is A Must

(Jason)

The funny thing about the Macmillan turnover switch is that it is not now, and never has been touted as a "real" cheating move. It was created by a magician that never played a game of cards in his life, was published in a magic book, and is used primarily in pseudo-demonstrations of gambling moves by myself and the other half-dozen people that do this move well.

(Doc)

The first thing I would like to do before I go into my analysis is to give the magician who invented this move a standing ovation for such a great idea. Everyone loves it even the great card cheating magicians therefore something must be great about this move and idea.

Jason regarding what you said about the Macmillan turnover that has never been touted as a real cheating move may have been true in the past but that's about to change as of today; at least in the case of me using it. Why? Because the move is an excellent move to do, you and your half-dozen friends just don’t know where to use it.

What Might Walter Scott Say About Jason’s Statement?

“Magicians weren’t interested in playing poker; they only wanted to know the moves that got the cards from the deck and on to the table…It made no sense to him…In Scott’s eyes, they were not clever enough…and selling what was never theirs.” Note: I deleted words from his text so not to offend anybody but I believe my teacher’s whole statement to be exactly true.

Note: This paragraph was taken from Page 182 and 183 of Phantoms of the Card Table.

Comments To Be Re-evaluated

(Jason’s Statement) “I don’t think it makes much sense to critique a move in a gambling context that was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move”

(Doc)

It does make a lot of since to critique a move in a gambling context IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL CARD CHEAT for a number of reasons.

1. I’m a cardsharp not a magician so how would I know where this move came from? Being that I am one is all the more reason why it is inevitable for me to critique it, being that I saw it in a movie pertaining to card artifice at the table.

2. I mean this in no disrespect but Jason nor those who learned the move is God and therefore don’t have the final word on what we are to critique. I will prove this in the last part of this evaluation. For those readers reading my post, please critique what I say and ask me questions because by doing this, I will continue to keep on advancing and learning and besides most times when one re-evaluate things, you learn new things that never crossed your mind before which might have been so simple to solve if only that person looked at it from another viewpoint.

3. I believe I know what the problem is now in which mostly all magicians view things sometimes. They believe that since a person possess great skills as a card sharp; he had to know that this move came from a magic publication; in which is not true. AS NIXON ONCE SAID, READ MY LIPS. I’M NOT A MAGICIAN I’M A LAYMAN AND I BELIEVE WHAT I SEE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE WHO WATCHES MAGICIANS DO SLEIGHT OF HAND. I JUST KNOW HOW TO CRITIQUE THINGS A LITTLE BIT BETTER REGARDING GAMBLING MOVES THAN OTHERS BECAUSE OF WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING. HOW DO YOU THINK I GOT TO THIS LEVEL? I CRITIQUED MOVIES SUCH AS THE STING TO GET BETTER AND THIS IS HOW I LEARNED HOW TO DO THE COLD DECK MOVE, I CRITIQUED IT UNTIL I FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IT.

4. So with that in mind, why should I dismiss something that worked for me in the past the second time because someone says why critique a move that was never created or intended as a gambling move because of their status as a great card manipulator? I shouldn’t, I should critique it the same way. Once you’ve stopped critiquing and thinking, you will never advance, you will never get better nor will you ever invent new moves or new things.

5. My last and final reason why you should critique all moves that you’re planning to use? IT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE. To all who may be interested in becoming a cheater, your life is more important than anything in this world and if you’re going to do a move and you don’t know the mentality of the people you’re playing with meaning if they are killers or not, please take my advice and critique all gambling moves that you come in contact with as if your life depended on it; because one day YOUR LIFE WILL DEPEND ON IT.

The second comment that should be re-evaluated is

This move was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move?

Even though I don’t have any proof, I believe that this move was. Why? I can’t imagine a trick that a person would use this move for unless it was for a gambling table. What trick does any one know where a magician places a card in the middle of the table and then position his hand in a way that is shown as in Shade just to do a switch unless it’s just like Jason said a pseudo-gambling move or a move that was intended to be a gambling move but because of the lack of knowledge about the card table, was dismissed and left to be improved upon by an expert cheat. (I’m just thinking out loud)

I’m assuming that this magician might have seen Dai Vernon or some gambler do this move while crumbling up the card and tried to improve upon it in which he did but since he had no prior gambling experience he could go no further.

Why the Move Was Never Used and Why Jason May Have Made This Statement?

I’m making an assumption here of why Jason made his statement being that I’m not God either and I can’t read minds or hearts, I believe it’s because of one of the same problems that the magician who made up the Macmillan turnover had, they don’t gamble for a living, don’t gamble that much or gamble only under certain conditions. Let’s fast forward to gambling under certain conditions.

Gambling Under Particular Conditions

According to Jason’s second post he knows about a blackjack table and the condition in which a move can be done. This shows that Jason has at sometime in his life gambled or is experienced in this area but also according to this same post Jason makes another statement that throws a little light on why he makes the other statement in which stumps me “the move is as useless as the Macmillan at the card table.” This is the missing part of the puzzle that must be found to solve the problem.

Jason, leave the world of the regular cards and come to the world of the Kem Cards and you’ll have the answer to the problem of why it was never used. This move can be accomplished perfectly and undetected without a flaw (a concave bend) if it was played using Kem Cards or any such cards of the same quality.

If Jason would have played at a poker table in the casino or just remembered that they played with plastic cards he would not have come to the conclusion that this move was useless.

Jason And Doc’s View Is Almost the Same
As To Why The Move Can Pass In Fast Company

Now let me put everything Jason said in an order to make it sound like what Doc said.

If something is presented as "real" to people who should know better, then by all means critique away. You guys are insisting that a move conform to card table procedures and contexts that we just didn't care about (Doc: or didn’t know at the time) as long as it looked plausible to non-experts.

It's possible to switch a single card with one hand in the act of turning another faced down card face up. We wanted to get this across to the audience. So, we put a switch that could accomplish this in the film! Since the “moves were done to show what is theoretically possible to do … with people who don’t already know… and since “all gambling is not played with regular cards…“Never mind that the card came out warped from the grip (Kem Cards Won’t).” If you think that (an) average audience member (or card player) can picked up on these things you're wrong…you're preaching to the choir on this one (Doc: sometimes it’s those in the choir that needs the most preaching too).

The move can pass in fast company for a few reasons. Why?

1. Because most people don’t know that this move exists according to a statement made by Jason (myself and the other half-dozen people that do this move well),

2. The 2nd reason why this move will go over well is because it’s unbelievable to the eye just like the Cold Deck Move. How be this possible to do if he has another card in his hand is what the mind will say to itself if he thinks something is wrong. The mind must take action and say to itself without words that he can’t be doing anything because he turned the card over normally and the way he has his hand positioned, he can’t possibly have anything in his hand. This observation is proven to be true because everyone who saw this move thinks that the move is great and spoke highly of it and want to learn it.

Readers of the forum you have to realize that certain moves like the retention of a vanishing coin fools the mind because the person saw that coin closed in by the other hand. Likewise when this card is turned over in the way it is, the mind will say it’s impossible for him to have two cards in his hand because he turned it over in a way that only permits one card to be turned over and by this fact alone makes the Macmillan turnover a gambling move for the card table.

Note: For the record, this is the only card switch that I know that has to be rated on the level of a Cold Deck Move. Why? The handling of this switch is not covered at all and it fools the eye.

Forum I Need Your Input On This

I would like the forum to voice their opinion on my evaluation to see if it's an excellent move for the card table after me tweaking out the problems.

The reason why I excel in certain things is because I look at things in a different perspective than many of you here because I do this for a living. Do you remember why I said that like going to the magicians? Because the magician’s have the answers but they don’t know the questions. This is a prime example of what I was talking about.

Well the fist thing I want to say is that Jason already told you the answer, so let's just find the riddle to where it fits. Jason answers the dilemma in his own words when he said, “Never mind that the card came out warped from the grip (Kem Cards Won’t).”

This is why this move is not used at the gambling table; it’s being used at the wrong gambling table. It’s suppose to be used at the table where they are playing with plastic cards but since he forgot about his own answer this is why he then stated “I don’t think it makes much sense to critique a move in a gambling context that was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move.”

My Concluding Observation

1. This move is excellent for the card table, the few magicians who knew about this technique just didn't know how to apply it because they don't either gamble or don’t be at gambling tables as much as I.

2. It does make a lot of since to critique a move in a gambling context IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER BUT NOT IF YOU’RE A MAGICIAN.

Steve Forte Learns Something New

When I was visiting Steve, Rod and Steve started talking about the quality of Kem Cards while they were doing false shuffles on each other. Steve was fooling Rod and Rod was fooling Steve. It was a great sight to behold, two of the greatest shufflers I’ve ever seen was baffling each other. Then Steve asked Rod a question “how is it possible that you’re able to conceal the fact that you’re holding a break while shuffling the cards?” and Rod said, “IT’S ONLY POSSIBLE TO DO IF YOU’RE USING KEM CARDS BUT NOT IF YOU’RE USING REGULAR PLAYING CARDS.” Steve was just taught something new that he didn’t know before and neither did I.

Bottom Line what you can't do with one type of cards, you may can do with the other.

Your Friend

Doc

Jason Saturday I purchased the DVD of the movie Shade just to see the moves and you do all your moves pretty good, I like them; Good card work. The only thing that I don’t like but was certainly necessary was the angle in which they showed the Macmillan turnover. In the commentary area you did the move flawless from the top angle and from the under the table position, the footage of the side view should not have been shown to show the card bent but it was necessary to see in order to come to a correct evaluation.

Like I said on a previous post, I made a variant for regular cards but it does not out beat the original way you do it especially if you this move playing with plastic Kem Cards.

One more thing before I go, In this month addition (June) of Psychology Today on page 62 you will see a very short right up on me.

Magically Yours

Doc

Hello,

Is this the magazine you mean DOC?

http://cms.psychologytoday.com/pto/issue_current.html

Regards

Hey Camador thanks for writing me and I hope all is well with you and your family.

Yes this is the magazine just turn to page 62 Sub-Heading Street Corner Psychologist.

Doc

P.S. Don't buy the magazine just pick it up and turn to page 62 because it's quick read.

Great posts doc.

Your fingers must be cramping after typing that ..ha


IN regard to the 'Stevens cull'

You can find a lot of info in the back of the Dai vernon book 'Revelations'

The handling in the book is incorrect.But there is still a lot of food for thought about the move.

The move is briefly described in the wonderfull book by Andrew wimhurst called 'Down under deals'.

If you want to study this technique seriously your gonna need both.

Cheers

kukram

Kukram thanks for the 411.

I'll glance over it when I have the time but to be honest with you I practice what I need in order to get the money. I just don't sit around practicing stuff just to say that I know how to do it, I'm past that stage in my life now.

I'm not knocking the move it's excellent but inferior to the cold deck, so why should I practice that when I can give the whole table a hand. Some don't realize that you can still get broke while stacking two hands.

Let's say you place 3 Aces and 3 Kings on top of the deck to double duke someone playing 5/7 card stud or draw poker: you don't have to win. The 4th King might show up by accident or another pair which will give that person a full house still leaving you with your 3 Aces but by cold decking, you don't have that problem, at least not in the beginning. What do you mean Doc?

Cold Decking is not all there is to the move. You have to set the deck up so that whomever you want to lose will lose but accidents do happen when you're first learning how to set up a deck.

Imagine setting up the deck to give yourself 3 Aces and the mark/victim 3 Kings and now you've just put in all your money in the pot because you know that you're going to win only to find out because you were new to setting up a deck that you forgot to put the other king at the bottom of the deck so now the sucker has 4 kings and now you're broke.

Talking is great but experience will always be your best teacher because people who tell stories most of the time forget certain things of a story that was necessary to come to a right conclusion.

Oh I forgot to say that it's an easier way to double duke, just interlace the 3 Aces and the 3 kings and place them at the bottom of the deck and after beating the cut just deal bottoms to the sucker and yourself. Him the Kings and you the Aces. If you can't beat the cut just do the same technique by middle dealing the alternates. See Andrew's Video on the middle deal for a basic idea of what I'm talking about.

Your Friend

Doc

P.S. Kukram typing long post don't bother me, I used to be a secretary before I started cheating which typed 85 - 90 wpm and before that when I was in 8th grade, I use to type for fun.

What moves can or cannot be used at the card table depends on who the company is or is not as the case may be. This goes beyond mere opinion when it is based on experience.
This is an experience that I had many years ago.
I was in a snooker hall and in came a friend of mine. I will call him Henry. Henry was a kid who always dressed immaculately. His motto was “ There is one thing worse than being skint and that’s looking it.” He said to me “Simon is coming here in a while, to play me Kalooki but I have no money, lend me some and I will give you half the winnings.” Why should I bet odds on when you are only evens to win I asked?
Because we are good pals he said grinning. I have no money to lend you, so why don’t you play him and if he wins the first game pretend you left you wallet at home, he will stand for it because you look like you have got plenty. Simon was a millionaire businessman far from an idiot but not streetwise. Kalooki is a game like Gin Rummy it is played with 13 cards each and two decks and with two jokers, which count as any card. I can’t do that, Henry said, he would never play me again.
O.K. I said, I would lend you the money and go half in with you, if you put the jokers in. “Put the jokers in?” What is that, I can’t make moves with the cards, I do not have a clue! .
So I showed Henry the move. It took Henry 2 minutes to get the move down.
The move needed no skill but a little boldness.
On the pick up, put the jokers 3rd and 5th from the top. Riffle the two decks keeping the five cards on top. Let Simon cut and you take the bottom half and deal. You will have a few cards left. Pick up the bottom half that’s been left on the table and place them on the few left in your hand spread them and turn over the top card. Let Simon pluck and you pluck the joker, let him pluck again and you pluck the other joker. Simon came in and Henry took £15,000 from Simon. You could buy a house at the time for £5,000. Simon years later discovered the move but could not prove anything by then, and in fact found it funny that some young kid had got him. We spent the money in no time having a good time but wishing now we had bought three houses, as they are about £150,000 now.

I think what made Henry a great cheat that day was his great acting ability and his nerve. It was nothing to do with his skill with cards. It must be the same with a magician; to be great they must be great actors who put on highly original performances. Mere slights are just tools. I think going to acting school would be the best step for a cheat or a magician.

Tommy thanks for the writing that experience, I need people to write more like that.

I have to agree with you on being an actor because we don't really have a plan when we're on the road hustling. The leader says what he's going to do and what we should do and everybody gets together and improvise from there acting their own part.

A Great Plan Gone Wrong

I remember when I was on the road and we was going to an All-Star game in Tennessee, no I think it was the Mike Tyson fight because I remember seeing some kind of fight upset etc. But before going to this mall, the night before a friend and I was at the hotel room getting ready for something and we saw this hooker in the lobby that my friend wanted to get with so he asked her how much and she said $100 each so we agreed.

As we went to our room to await her because she was staying in the room up the hall my friend took out his three shell game and said that we was going to con her out of the coochie so I said okay whatever you say being that I was new to this road hustling.

We started acting like we were playing against each other so when she came to the room it appeared as though we was gambling against each other. As the girl came into the room my friend paid her the $200 and told her to wait just a bit so he could finish beating me out of my money. She said okay.

The Con Man Gets Conned

As my friend and I kept going back and forth with finding the pea the hooker became interested because I kept picking the wrong one and she kept finding the pea. So she asked if she could play and he said yes. He did the 3 shell move stealing the pea and fooled me, so the hooker said can I bet and show him which one out the two it’s under and he said yea but you have to bet money so she agreed. She took some of the money that she just got paid with and wagered on the correct shell and lost right along with me. I then picked up the other shell and said I knew you should’ve picked this one showing her the pea was actually under the other one.

My friend kept doing this and beating her until she was broke; now it was time to get some coochie but when he went to get some, the hooker said I ain’t giving you s***. He said why not, I paid you for it right? She said, yeah but I ain’t gonna be putting no mileage on my P**** and then leave here broke too. He then put her out the room arguing with her and calling her names as she went down the hall to her room.

She conned us that time because we couldn’t take it because that would have been a rape charge so she laughed while she left the room switchin' saying, take it, well take it then while he was still cursing her out. He later told me that normally the girls keep their word but this was the first one that didn’t. I kept laughing at what happened because he was still calling her names and she had been gone now about 15 minutes; he was mad.

Bottom Line. In my viewpoint like Tommy said earlier we have to be good actors to sell our magic tricks. You may have better skills and technique than I but this only matters to the magicians critiquing each other. To the public it doesn’t matter how great your technique is as long as they liked your performance and your jokes you were the best magician.

Your Friend

Doc

Hi doc,

Have you ever thought of writing a book and putting these stories into it, I'm sure there would be a big interest.


'Life of a hustler'

By the way I want my cut for the title....ha

Kukram didn't you read between the lines when I said this on a previous post? I said that a good book need particulars. This why I said that ya'll have to keep asking me questions so things that I've forgotten about can be remembered.

Doc

Apart from cards and dice, have you ever been involved in other hustles or scams

I say this as you touched on the subject of the shell game.

Thanks

Patience. Cool Temper. These are two qualities needed as well. A sticks and stones mindset. You can pretend to lose your temper but you can't really lose it. You lose your temper and you lose control. No sense of disgust. You will be talking to people who believe many different things and when they say something you get to agree! That's right...be a yes man!

The acting school thing just reached out and grabbed me. Wasn't Dunninger who said "There is no such thing as a magician...only actors playing the parts of magicians." Well change a word or two...

Hey DOC, I just wanted to say...happy juneteenth. Its my B-day...and growing up the only white guy in navy yard (Its a mass of irony for all the world to see...) I love juneteenth...I am *VERY* proud to be born on that day.

You know Paul Zenon's change raising technique? You might like it...

M

Hi Doc,

What's up with the thing we had going on? you know what I'm talking about.

Hi Doc,

I think a clarification is in order here.

When I said "don't critique" in earlier posts, I didn't mean "don't analyse." I meant, "don't disparage". Additional analysis is virtually always good. In other words, of course it is acceptable to look at a move and try to tweak it and adapt it to the card table. And it sounds like you've done this. (By the way, the "McMullen Switch" is a great way to pay homage to the original.)

One of the ways we both agree that this adaptation can be done is to take certain precautions to eliminate the bending of the card that is coming in. Perhaps the easiest way to do this is to use plastic cards that don't hold a bend in the first place. Another way might be to alter the position of the incoming card in your hand before it comes in. There are several other ways to eliminate or cover this bend, some that I've come up with and some that others have come up with.

But the point I was trying to make is that since the MacMillan switch wasn't conceived as a gambling move by its inventor, it makes sense that it might not be perfect in a gambling context. Daryl's "Snowshoe Second" makes little sense in a gambling context as well, since it's open and an obvious gag. To critique (as in disparage) this move as a "bad idea" in a real gambling/cheating context would be ludicrous. The move is an obvious gag and psuedo-gambling move.

Perhaps the MacMillan isn't as obviously a magic move, but it is a magic move nonetheless. It just so happens that it's a magic move that can rather easily be adapted to the card table. But there's the rub..."adapted."

As described in Dan MacMillan's book, and as performed in Shade, the move isn't perfect for the card table. On this we all agree.

My point is, why should it be?

Jason

This one sounded like a scene from a Charlie Chaplin film and I could not stop laughing when I was told this story but these guys were serious people.
To keep a long story short this is it.

This is a Backgammon contraption. Apparently being hired out for a cut of the action.

The dice are loaded but with equal weights on every side so they fall fairly.
However the one spots are loaded with steel slugs, as the other spots are led slugs.
Two large magnets are strapped to your legs above the knees.
You raise your knees under the table to get yourself a double six.
The guy who used it said it works but you can just barely walk with these magnets strapped on.

Jason since I saw the movie footage and seen the different angles of the turnover and liked them all except the bent position would it be possible since you do this move the best not to hold the card so tight in your hand.

Please help me on this since I haven't mastered this variant as of yet, but from my viewpoint the bend didn't come from you turning over the card, it came from your tight grip previous to doing the move. Am I correct in this assumption, if not please let me know.

Your Friend

Doc

They weren't kidding. I'm unfamiliar with steel or lead slugs, but I am familiar with magnet slugs for this purpose (neodymium or cobalt). Also, there's usually more involved than simply lifting your leg (and a better place to conceal the magnet).

Doc, any "tracking" stories?

Yes Larry you are right these guys were certainly not kidding. It was the way they explained the story, which was funny.
You are no doubt right about the dice. I am not familiar with dice and I do not think they were either. The dice you mention, can they be purchased on the web?