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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
Tommy, I'm not familiar with a WEB source. I bought mine from an underground source years ago, and at the time the price was about $250 for a pair.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thanks Larry I have had a quick look but can not find any of the kind you mention but there are some things here.
http://www.gamblingcollectibles.com/equipment4.htm http://www.gamblingcollectibles.com/equipment2.htm
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Tommy, that's still the going price for a pair of magnetic dice unless you're pretty close with the maker and he gives you a deal.
**** Happens I remember being at a convention of some sort, right now I don't remember which at the moment where we (me and my partners) rented two hotel rooms that was right next to each other in order to beat some suckers with the juice. These guys knew about the juice table so the con game that my friends initiated was stepped up a notch; they had a wall juice device just incase. Note: This device works exactly like the juice table but it's positioned behind the opposite side of a wall to where you're going to play dice. As the dice is thrown close to the wall the juice will come through the wall and make the dice roll on the preferred point. The Con The time had come when the game was supposed to start. As the guys entered the room we staged it as if the game was already in progress. Each of us was betting each other etc. Out of nowhere one of my friends asked these guys why they weren't playing and they said, we like to play on the floor. I said yeah I like to play on the floor too because I'm losing my money here on this table. Everybody agreed to play on the floor so we went to another part of the room and removed the recliner so we could have an empty and large enough spot to play in. This was the spot where the juice device was positioned in back of the wall. As we started to play and bets were made etc. to my surprise when I threw the dice after making my initial point, the dice stuck to the lower part of the hotel wall as if someone glued them there. Everybody in amazement said oh **** did you see that? As one of the suckers reached to get the dice they fell from the wall; everybody jumped back momentarily because they got scared. One of the guys in the crew said, this room is ****** haunted. Is this the room where that guy got killed in? The other hustler said yeah (playing it off), but if he **** with my dice while I'm shooting them and make me lose, back the **** up because I'm a gonna start shooting for real. Everybody started laughing and kept on playing after they examined the dice as if nothing happened. You should have seen my dice switch it was so pretty and flawless that my friends didn’t even know that I switched the dice out of play when I handed it to one of the suckers who seem to be Jap wise to check out. Everybody in my crew gave me a look like no don’t do that when I asked the sucker to check these out for me because I’ve been losing my money like a dog and I don’t know how to check and see if anything is wrong or not. After the guy checked out the dice and was content with his evaluation, he said they were okay and we started playing again. How dumb can a sucker be? The reason why the dice stuck to the wall was that the juice device had an electrical problem and was too strong and the button momentarily stuck because it wasn't used in a while. The reason why the dice fell as the sucker was about to grab it was by accident and probably because the button became unstuck at that exact moment when the power from the magnet switched off. We stopped using the device and eventually beat these guys by switching loaded dice in and out of play. Your Friend Doc P.S. One day I’ll videotape my Retrievable Raven-like dice switch in which I call the Eagle Claw for all to see but it won’t be any time soon. |
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Elknase New user 50 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-06-21 14:25, Unknown419 wrote: Doc, I admire your skill to fleece a hooker until she was broke and still wanting the big service while feeling convinced to be conned by her the moment she refuses service. Congratulations and thank you to share such a great lesson with the fools that adore you! I'm convinced, some people from a different league can't wait to meet you when you are about to play them. Go on with your adventurous stories and all the skill and experience you claim to have and keep up being entertaining but never forget there are people you won't lead up the garden path. People you can't fool twice because your hands get smashed with a hammer and you have to do your famous cooler differently the last time before you'll be introduced to skill you never learned to perceive. It's never about ethics but levels of how to play the games. And one day, my dear friend, you will dance with the devil. He will change you. Cheat you. Seduce you. But you won't see it coming. Fortunately, there is no such thing as the devil that is coming for your soul, ain't my friend ? |
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Pekka Special user Finland 560 Posts |
Elknase, what are you on about?
Let's not forget how much magic is in debt for different cheating techniques. Yes, all the way to the biblical times. I find it, therefore, somewhat odd that we should criticise cheaters on this message board. A man does what he does and pays for the consequences. I consider it to be a privilege to hear stories from a real life character and I do not feel like a fool at all. At least most of us here have the decency of not to insult others. |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Elknase thanks for writing me and I appreciate your comments because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just would like to explain something to this forum so that all can have a better understanding about what I believe and me.
As far as conning a hooker is concerned I wrote that I was new to this ruse and was told to act this part right before she was to show up in which I did. I take no pride in conning to get laid but this girl looked so good and had a body so bad that she’d make a bishop throw down his bible and jump out of a stained glass window. On another note I would like to say that while I’m on the road that the stripper clubs that you saw in Shade actually is one of the main areas in which we catch a lot of suckers; hey I met M.J. at the Gentleman’s Club in Atlanta giving out $100 bills. As far as calling my reader’s fools is concerned that’s not nice because when you point your finger at someone 3 fingers are always pointing back at you so what does that tell you. On a spiritual note God would say…but whoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt. 5:22). I guess we’ll both be dancing with the devil one day, I just hope that while we’re dancing together, he cuts in and wants to dance with you to tell you that God Can’t Lie and this is why you’re in the same boat with Doc. On the Street Tip, what you’re saying about me getting my hands smashed maybe true but don’t think for one minute that we’re not packing heat just in case we get caught and have to shoot our way out of a place. Have you ever seen the Gun Hold-Out (Wild, Wild West)? Well the chances of me getting my hands smashed is very unlikely as to me getting shot because I shoot first and ask questions later. But Doc that sounds stupid? It may but I like what I heard a judge or someone say one day and it made a whole lot of sense “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If you’re alive you always got hope that the twelve judging you might let you off but if you’re dead, you only can hope that 6 pall barrows will carry you. The Meaning of Doc/Docholiday Many here know me as Doc which means Dealer of Cards or I’ll play anybody Dice or Cards but my name goes even further than what ya’ll may think. I did some research when I came up with the name that I wanted to use because I don’t like to lie to people so I tell the truth by saying my name. All they have to do if they wish to know about me is just look up the meaning of my name in the Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary. In bible times names had a meaning likewise, so do mine. Doc means to doctor or fix up. I fix/mark cards up while I’m playing. Doc also means to teach in which I do in gambling and theology and my full street name which is Docholiday means that Doc keeps the 7th Day Sabbath holy day as his day of rest (Ex. 20:8-11; Isa. 66:22, 23). Holiday is derived from the word Holy day; and last but not least the real Docholiday was the fastest gunslinger known in his time and played cards for a living. So when you see that hand smasher tell him, don’t bring a hammer to a gunfight because I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Dancing With The Devil As far as dancing with the devil is concerned, we all dance with him daily in our lives (Eph. 6:10-12) some with money, greed, power, sex, fame, gambling, gluttony etc. I wrote on this topic but this post was deleted because its teaching of the fate of the cheater was the same as the magician and therefore was not beneficial to the advancement of this site or people becoming magicians Oh one more thing before I go, as far as the devil cheating and seducing me is concerned, even though he’s the best at what he do and still should be respected for his craft, he can’t beat me either. If I didn’t learn anything from gambling except this is, I know that there is always someone out there better than you that you can’t beat. Since I know for a fact that I can’t beat him on my own, like the hustlers who call in ringers so must I when it comes to this time in my life. Sometimes it’s not what you know; it’s whom you know. I know Jesus, and I know that if I take a hold of him and keep him as my Lord and Savior and read his Bible (Basic Information Before Leaving Earth), the Devil can’t touch me. Besides the devil only took 1/3 of the angels with him so I have 2/3 helping me besides the Father, Son and Holy Ghost who can’t be beat. Still Your Friend, Just Speaking Our Minds Doc The Fate of the Magician and the Cardsharp Note: This is only for those who believe in God. I’m not here to debate with those who don’t believe because everybody is entitled to their own beliefs. I’m only stating what’s in the bible a book that I BELIEVE (not you) to be inspired by God. This Morality of Cheating question will offend many a magicians and Christian magician’s but I only state the facts if it’s to my benefit or not and most times the truth hurts. As I stated in my Strike Second Deal post which was taken down, friends don’t lie to friends they will tell them the truth even if it’s not what they want to hear. (To Marmaduke) This will answer your question. I make no justification for what I’m doing; I’m wrong and I’m guilty of being a card cheat, which in my viewpoint is a thief. That which is wrong is can never be right. If I don’t change my ways, I will be lost. Not only will I be punished but also I will be punished worse because I knew what was right but didn’t do it. Society’s View and My Belief Society’s belief that lying is okay as long as is doesn’t hurt any one but shuns thieves and cheats. Both is wrong in the eyes of God and on Judgment Day God will definitely make this known. The same 10 Commandment Law that says, “Thou Shalt Not Steal, is the same one that said “Thou Shalt Not Bare False Witness (Lie). It is my belief that by playing cards at any level especially to make money is wrong. Sin is sin; the professional card player, the professional card cheat, the person who plays at home to just past time (I mean a person who forgets everything and closes out the world – video game players included – who don’t do what they’re suppose to do or have to do) will all end up at the same place if they don’t stop playing cards and this includes me. I will be punished worse than any because I know but did not do. We all are stewards of time and time shouldn’t be wasted on playing cards, chess, checkers etc. for long periods of time. I don’t tickle ears (telling people what they want to hear) cause one day I’m going to have to stand before God for what I do and say and when I do, I want Him to say when that time comes “Good Steward come on in.” That will be the greatest day of my life; to live forever and hang out with some of ya’ll if ya’ll make it there. For some unknown reason God wants me to answer this gentlemen’s question even if it’s for the reason of someone else reading and learning from it. Preaching has always been my calling and first love even before I started cheating and after I quit it will still be. I just want to let ya’ll in on a secret of why I’ve strived to be one of the best at cheating. The bible says, “Whatever thy hands find to do, do it well cause there is no reward in sheol the grave in which you are going to. I forgot what version it was in (I have 28), so I did. I don’t know how I slipped and fell and ended up on the Gambler’s Turnpike but I’m about to get off soon, the sign up ahead says “This Road Leads to Eternal Life” but there is also a warning sign underneath the words. It says drive very carefully because this road is very narrow and definitely slippery when wet. Cheaters and Magicians Are In the Same Boat. The Bible states “Liars and thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God.“ Do your own research but start at the 10 Commandments. Cheaters: Card cheaters are nothing more than Table Performing Pasteboard Magicians. Like stage magicians, street magicians and club magicians, they all still do magic or card manipulations but are categorized differently because of the area in which they do their tricks. Hence, the expert card cheater is a magician whose stage is the card table and his audience the card players. He doesn’t ask for donations and he doesn’t have a set salary, his income is based upon the amount of money the card player(s) have and will lose that day/night. A guy wrote me saying, “If you are only cheating the very rich that do not even feel the loss of their money, or if you are cheating other sharps, I think it's justified.” Cheating/Stealing is never justified. Let’s change the characters of his story To Eve and God. Eve (the thief) just coveted and stole from God (the richest being in the universe because everything in it is His even you) and it did matter even to Almighty God that she stole a fruit which cost God nothing but a thought or a word from His lips to make. It’s the principle, if God says, “thou shalt not steal,” He means it; stealing can and will never be justified ever. He cannot change and He cannot lie. My Final Thoughts: Cheaters are table-performing magicians that are thieves but not necessarily liars. Their problem is stealing and greed and on Judgment Day they will be held accountable before God for their actions if they don’t accept Jesus as their attorney or Lord and Savior. Magicians: Magicians and Ventriloquist are Liars and Deceivers. Example 1. You see this card now I’m placing it on top of the deck (the magician does a second deal) now watch me place your card here on the table. (RIGHT HERE YOU LIED. YOU KNEW THAT YOU DID NOT PLACE THAT PERSON’S CARD ON THAT TABLE; YOU INTENTIONALLY DECEIVED AND LIED TO THEM) Example 2: A Ventriloquist makes is appear as though a dummy is talking when it’s not. That’s deceiving the onlooker even though it’s done in fun. Note: The first time it was ever done, it wasn’t for fun, it was to make Eve believe that God was holding back power from them to make them be as gods and to steal their property which was earth. How the Devil tricked Eve. 1. He used a snake and charmed her. The flying snake was the most beautiful creature on earth. As it flew through the air it gave an appearance of dazzling brightness, having the color and brilliancy of burnished gold). 2. He used Ventriloquism to throw his voice and make it appear that the serpent had the power of speech when it had not. 3. He lied. He lied for the purpose of stealing Adam’s domain earth. This is why Christ had to come as the second Adam and reclaim the property of his near of kin (Adam) to buy (redeem) back the land (earth) by His blood. This was a territorial law of the Israelites and God abided by this rule. Note: The Devil lied and threw his voice, the exact same techniques as the magician and Ventriloquist uses to accomplish their tricks or goals. Eve told God that the serpent beguiled her and the Lord accepted her testimony as being true. Let’s look at the meaning of beguile Beguile means to trick, 1. to lead by deception. 2. To engage the interest of (the people or public) by or as if by guile. (This sound like a magician to me) synonyms see deceive. Deceive. To cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid. To deceive by wiles. This is exactly what card cheats and magicians use to accomplish their goal. The magician uses it for entertainment, money and prestige, the Card or Dice cheat uses it to get money and the Devil used it to steal Adams domain (earth) and gain power. See Note * below. *Note: See Job 2 and Heb. 1:1,2. 11:3-Where God made worlds (more than one) and each son of God was to appear representing his world. Satan is shown here representing earth at that time but since then Jesus died for our sins and is now our representative, mediator and Savior of earth. Also read the parable of the Shepard who had 100 sheep (worlds) and had to leave them to save this one lost sheep (world). If you read Gen 3 you will see that the Devil employed all three to accomplish his goal. I guess my Lord is directing me now to save the so-called Christian magicians as well as the Christian card sharks. Lying on any level is wrong and those who do it will be held accountable. On Judgment Day society’s reasoning and thoughts on which is the lesser sin won’t matter. Sin is sin to God. Imagine committing only 1 sin a day, you would consider yourself a very good person, almost perfect right but on judgment day if you live to be 70 years old and died, you would have committed 25,550 sins; this is why we need Jesus as our Attorney or Savior because only 1 is too much for God. If you don’t think that’s a lot now imagine yourself getting paid $25,550 to do a magic show. Synonyms Deceive, mislead, delude, beguile mean to lead astray or frustrate usually by underhandedness. Deceive implies imposing a false idea or belief that causes ignorance, bewilderment, or helplessness? Tried to deceive me about the cost? Mislead implies a leading astray that may or may not be intentional? The confusing sign misled me? Delude implies deceiving so thoroughly as to obscure the truth? We were deluded into thinking we were safe? Beguile stresses the use of charm and persuasion in deceiving? My Final Thoughts: Magicians and Ventriloquist are liars and deceivers. Their problem is lying and maybe greed for money or prestige, and even though they may feel that a white lie to make their trick more amazing is okay, lying is still lying to God on any level and on Judgment Day they will be held accountable if they don’t accept Jesus as their attorney or Lord and Savior. For the record to those who might be interested, the best cheats that I’ve ever met was magicians in some kind of way or another including me. I also want to let you know that most black cheats that I am around being that I’m black, really and truly believe in God and know the bible quite well. God don’t want any of His children especially the sinners to be lost so He has to get His message to them in some kind of way; I believe, not that I’m right, that’s why He’s keeping me around and how He’s using me. Who can talk better to a cheat than a cheat? If I’ve offended any one here by telling the truth as I see it, put an H on your chest and HANDLE IT. Friends don’t lie to friends. You’ll see if what I just wrote is true on Judgment Day when God will bring all things to your remembrance of how He tried to save you. My question to ya’ll? Why is it that one of the first books that magicians recommend to beginners is “Expert at the Card Table” a card cheating book if they both don’t go hand to hand? Please don’t write me and answer this. I’m only kidding… Your Friend Doc |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I don't want to get to heavy here but their are many people like me that feel that ES Andrews was a magician not a card cheat.
The reason I feel that he was a magician is that he wrote and published the book because he needed the money. Most magicians don't really cheat because I think that it is not in their nature to cheat. ES Andrews could do three card monte and in the early 1900's a real three card monte man could have amde a living doing three card monte for money. Or at least to get a steak to get him going again. So there is a very good chance ES Andrews was a magician. We just don't know... Why would a magician pretend that they were a card shark and write a book that exposes card shark moves? Could anyone do that today and make a living at it?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Tielie Special user 749 Posts |
I do believe in God in some way, and find this very interesting. I don't think magicians are breaking any rules. They bring joy and happyness in people's lives, I don't think God will dislike it.
' (DOC what's up with the thingy we had a conversation about in the PM's?)
Deal cards, not drugs!
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Bish
It is my limited understanding that Andrews, who is said to be Erdnase by some, by all accounts was not a magician but a gambler. It stands to reason that them who think he was Andrews can not say he was a magician. Having said that I am not sure what a magician is. I mean, is Doc, for example, a magician? He does not regard himself a magician but he is regarded by his girlfriend as a magician, the one who calls him Houdini that is. The insights Erdnase gave that relate to a gamblers mind and cheating technique and life are too close to the mark to have been based on observation or imagination. I think this is an honest book that pulls no punches and tells no lies. For this reasons I think he was a cheat. I think like others he learnt from magicians and addapted and developed the moves for the card table. Like a forger can learn from a printer. Incidentally,I for one do not think he was Andrews as I have read evidence to the contrary. Larry I was just thinking about these magnetic dice. If there are magnets in both the dice then would they not stick to each other? Would that not spoil the play.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
With respect to the dice I own, you can feel them sleightly attracting or repelling each other IF you hold them in certain positions and IF you are intent on finding something suspicious. I personally wouldn't use them to cheat (I don't cheat anyway) for fear that someone in the know might examine them closely and detect a problem, assuming that I couldn't first switch them out without detection (which it appears Doc can do). It's entirely a non-issue for me because I use the dice for magic purposes and the way I've structured the routines eliminates the possibility of detection.
Larry D. P.S. - I don't pretent to be a gambling expert. That's not my area. |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
I would just like to say that ya'll see Larry and Glen discussing if Erdnase was a real cheat etc? Well God forbid that if something happens to me, I wouldn't want any guessing if I was a cheat, I am.
I believe this maybe one of the first times that magicians were actually able to talk to a real cheat instead of reading things about one and guessing. Besides that I don't want anyone stealing the little glory I have as being one because of power, greed or prestige of being a famous gambling magician demonstrator etc. I’ve really worked hard to achieve my skills even though I was deceived by gambling magicians writers and demonstrators I hold no grudge because everything that’s is done is done for a reason even if we don’t understand why at this time in our life. Stories about cheaters like Erdnase, Dad Stevens, Allen Kennedy and Walter Scott are blown out of proportion because of guessing about them and so forth, What if I actually spoke to one and got the real insight is what I'm trying to give those who are seeking it; the good and the bad side of everything I've experienced so far, Walter Scott couldn't answer rebuttals to defend himself or the art of cheating from Dai Vernon but I can. When a top class card manipulator says don't critique meaning exactly how he mentioned it in his post (I'm not trying to start anything up) I've would have accepted this statement as true if I was still in the stages of studying as many of you as if it was etched in stone because I would feel in my heart that he ought to know better than I if he's one of the top cheating magicians in the United States. This is why I made so many mistakes and why I’m speaking out because as a student of the gambling books, I believed all that the magician writers wrote because I didn’t know. I’m trying to save as many of ya’ll from traveling this long road as I possibly can. Even though everything happens for a reason, I've learned to realize that no one has all the answers because new cheating moves are being invented everyday like the one Jason demonstrated in Shade and it's too much to try to get all of this info and to practice and learn it. I've also learned that we all have our specialties and this doesn't mean that one cardsharp is better then the other, he just prefer certain techniques better than others or practices what he need in order to get the money. I'm just here talking and trying to help as many as possible while trying not to make it appear as though that I'm arrogant and have all the sense and no one else has any. I know that I won't be able to please all in this area but I have to try at all cost anyway. Larry D, Tommy and Elknase thanks for writing and voicing your views and all is appreciated. One can't learn if one doesn't ask questions. Your Friend Doc |
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Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts |
I have several pairs of magnetic dice and yes, they do slightly repel each other.but, it is very sleight. Also, if you hold a magnet to them they will stick...real dice don't do that.
Another old trick (may be an old wives tail) is to keep a pocket compass on a dice table and see if the needle moves. (Obviously, if there is no magnet, the needle should remain stable.) Good luck and enjoy! Magically yours, Jeff
Long Island,
New York |
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Hello Doc,
Your posts are as always thought provoking and controversial. You state the following and I quote, 'Cheaters and Magicians Are In the Same Boat' Well I do have to disagree with this. In the case of magicians, they are publically acknowledged as entertainers. People actually pay for the pleasure of being 'deceived' and 'astonished' and willingly enter into this contract as long as the magician is entertaining and skilled. The professional cheat is in a much darker area setting out with the intention to steal from someone who does not know they are being stolen from. What is important here is the motivation, the intention behind the action that really gives it meaning. Regards, Paul H |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Hey Paul thanks for writing and expressing your viewpoint I appreciate it very much. Each individual has his or her own religious views on matters such as this and they should be respected for it. Not everyone believes in God so pushing a viewpoint that an individual don’t believe in isn’t worth a hill of beans. I don’t know what your moral standards are but on Judgment Day ONLY GOD’S VIEWPOINT AND STANDARDS WILL MATTER AND NOT SOCIETY’S. You should think about this because “there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Prov. 14;12).
You say that people pay for the pleasure of being deceived which mean lied to (for the meaning please read my previous post). This may be true but that doesn’t mean that it’s right. There are people who pay to see fighters fight to the death just for their entertainment but that doesn’t mean that that’s right either. You speak of intention your intention is to entertain people at the cost of disobeying God’s word (thou shalt not bear false witness) for money. This evaluation not only shows that you are a liar (to those you are entertaining), it also shows that money is your god and you’re willing to break the first commandment of the 10 Commandments “thou shalt have no other gods before me” just for money. So in street terminology I can rightfully say that you lie to people to get money and this is a 1st cousin to conning people. Why? Remember in the beginning of the movie Shade where the lady lied to the gas attendant about losing her ring? She lied to get his money and because of his greed for money in which was his god, he got conned. W. C. Field’s said it the best, “You Can’t Cheat an Honest Man. How can you cheat or Con an Honest God fearing man? First of all he won’t be gambling and playing cards and neither would he had tried to make extra money for himself for finding a ring in which he did not find. He would have given the finder of the ring the information that he received from the lady so that he could receive the $1,000 and in the process wouldn’t have been conned out of his. If you feel in your heart that it’s okay to lie for money even if it’s for entertainment purposes than please feel free to do so. Just don’t lie to yourself about the facts of your actions while doing it. I know that I’m wrong for cheating people but then again other hustlers I know don’t think so, so you would have a different evaluation coming from them. All of us here basically know in our heart what is right and wrong even if we care not to do it. My job is to tell what I believe God says and give you scripture proof so that when you get time, you can read it for yourself so as not to just take my word on it. I cheat and since my mouth ain’t no prayer book, I need you to know this so that on Judgment Day when we all have to stand before God we won’t be able to say, “God I didn’t know, I thought Doc was just going a little bit overboard with what he was talking about?” One more thing before I go. If you really think that it’s okay to lie to your audience then stand before God and do a trick and lie to Him (while entertaining) and see what’ll happen to you. Read Acts 5:1-11 and you’ll see what happened to a guy and his wife who lied directly to God. Note: Because God doesn’t immediately kill us as soon as we lie doesn’t mean that He doesn’t have the right to. “Sin is the transgression of the law” “and the wages of sin is death.” By right we must immediately die as soon as we sin, but thank God we don’t have to because Jesus stands before the Father begging Him not to kill us for his sake. Bottom Line, stop pointing your finger at me especially when we're both in the same boat. Your Friend Doc P.S. Don't forget to deceive means to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
It is interesting to draw comparisons between Erdnase and Doc and I note they have, by and large, the same philosophy on cheating. With no disrespect to Doc I think Erdnase puts it more eloquently in his Preface and Introduction in Expert at the Card Table.
If you read the Erdnase preface and Introduction you can ask yourself if you agree with what he says. I personally find it difficult to disagree with anything Erdnase says. Such as “We have neither grievance against the fraternity nor sympathy for so-called “victims.” A varied experience has impressed us with the belief that all men who play for any considerable stakes are looking for the best of it.” I, like Erdnase and Diogenes, am yet to find the unknown one. “But not a man! The one! The one who puts above himself the others! THE UNKNOWN ONE!!! Then, Diogenes walked through Athens in broad daylight carrying a lighted lamp, saying that he was looking for a man! an honest man!! “
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
I must say that when I joined this excellent forum, I never thought it would impinge on the realms of both pychology, moral philosophy and religion. This is most refreshing. Doc, I can well see why you may have taken my post as something of a moral judgement on your approach to gambling and your profession. In fact it was not my intention to become a moral censor and I apologise if my post sounded like this. In my view, as soon as you invoke a moralistic right and wrong, black and white approach, all decent reflective dicussion descends into polarised hollering and flag waving. As I am sure you know and tommy also notes in his post above, gambling is a massively grey and complex area with regard to morality.
To me actions never occur in a vacuum. What I was trying to do was bring a motivational analysis to the table when thinkng about the similarities and differences between magicians and those in the profession of gambling and cheating. You and Jason have already had a similar discussion over the Macmillan switch. Crucial to the analysis of the switch is the intention of its creator. For example, this move, invented to simulate a gambling artiface for demonstration purposes only, would be analysed very differently from the same move created to BE a gamblng sleight at the card table. In my opinion, the former is successful but the latter is dangerous and risky due to the card retaining the palm shape. It is true that magicians 'lie' to their audiences and in this area there are similarities with the cheat. But there are also differences. The cheat hones his skills and specialises in perfecting a small number of effective and hopefully utterly deceptive gambling 'moves'. Magicians are much more flexible and able to incorporate a range of sleights and moves to augment a magical mystery to less exacting standards. And yes, I do think that there are differences in goals between the prof cheat and the magician. The cheats motivation is to actively win money by subtefuge from someone unsuspecting. The magician is advertising his disceptions and offering to entertain for money. This is a motivational difference. Whether one is more morally reprehensible than the other, I have no idea and would not presume to judge. But it is all very interesting and stimulating. One of my passions is for clarity and insight and I hate it when I come off unclear and fuzzy which unfortunately is quite often. I do hope this is not one of those occasions. Regards, Paul H |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-06-23 12:21, tommy wrote: The facts that Erdnase was ES Andrews was told to Martin Gardner and Vernon by Drake who was the first publisher of the book. Drake being the publisher was one of the only men that was said to have known him being the publisher of the book expert at the card table. Second Mr Smith the person that did the drawings from life hands of Andrews was tracked down by Martin Gardner and was a guest at a magic convention in Chicago. He also told that the mans name was Andrews... I have seen no proof that this part is not true... I feel that Andrews was a magician... The reason I feel this is that most of the card sharp expo is written up for demonstration. Not for cheating at the card table. The card sharp part is filled with magic terms... That is just part of the reason I feel that Andrews was a magician... Here is a link to a thread I started a while ago. Some may find it interesting reading... http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;forum=2
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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JBSmith1978 Veteran user NY 389 Posts |
Hmm, Reubens. Whatever happened to that cute lady that worked behind the counter? =x
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Hee hee. That was good Paul. Of course you are right. A cheat is a thief and a magician is an entertainer. They are not in the same boat. They are not in the same ocean if you ask me. However one must take into account the following.
The magician deals with an audience and the cheat deals with players. Audiences and players are not in the same boat either. The audience of the magician is not out to take away the magicians money. The players, who the cheat deals with, are, in the cheats mind, out to take his money by hook or by crook. That last point is arguable but I have to agree with the cheat and say that players will cheat if they are sure they can get away with it. I read somewhere; “You will hear players say that a cheat is worse than a thief because he steals from his friends and they can and do react strongly, violently sometimes murderously, against a cheater.” This might be so but you will not find many friends at a high stakes poker table. Those that are friends are likely to be colluding to a degree. What you will find at the card table are plenty of foes. Also the people who are of this view are the most likely to cheat if they could. This is a disparaging point of view of professional card players but it is what I have come to believe through experience.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Paul, Tommy thanks for writing and expressing your views. We're just discussing things here and as I said before, everybody is entitled to their opinion, this is what makes the world go around. Keep on talking and asking questions because I like it. We all can learn from each other.
Thanks again and I'm glad to have ya'll as friends. Your Friend Doc |
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