The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Would a real cheat write this? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..6..9..12..15..17~18~19~20~21..29~30~31 [Next]
J3
View Profile
Regular user
Texas
165 Posts

Profile of J3
I may be new to this thread but not to you, lol. I think you know me as JCGDoom on Instant messenger;)

But anyways I posted about marlo in order to get my post to stick, as my first 2 were deleted, I honestly am neutral to his riffle shuffle systems, the reason I used this as an example is because on his primetime dvd Jon R. says marlo himself knew this wouldnt fly in the real world. But that's not to say I don't think of marlo as a great cardician, I do, otherwise why would I keep buying his dvds and books?
(and why would I even use the term cardician?)

Also I wish youd post your strike second topic over at cnc, cuz you know I wouldnt delete that.

That is all.
Yiannis
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago USA
352 Posts

Profile of Yiannis
Dear Andrew,

thank you for your reply. I would like to apologize if the tone of my previous response offended your feelings in any way. I respect you as an expert card manipulator and I have learned and continue to learn from your video and lecture notes, quite a few things. One thing that motivated me to buy your excellent stuff, was Doc's praise for your middle deal. And I must say I wasn't dissapointed Smile

Regarding the blindfold that Scott was wearing, it is stated in Gazzo's book that it was a black pillow case. You can also see it in the photograph accompanying the text. I believe that Scott used this kind of blindfold to guard against exactly your kind of thinking; which is common knowledge even to laymen that you can peek down your nose.

Wearing a black sack down your head and around your neck, how can anybody, even with the eyes wide open, see anything?? Unless, Scott was using an extremely clever peeking system through this kind of blindfold and withhold this information from McGuire or even Gazzo and this technique was never published.

Anyway, opinions vary and all are mostly welcomed. I'm just offering my understaning and evaluation. The New York's demonstration is fully described in Gazzo's book and explains some of the difficulties that you may have to deal with, when you use the peg. That's why Scott used the edge work; to ensure a successfull demo.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, I don't consider this thread a "little fun club". Saying so, I think you degrade Doc's sincere efforts to educate, sincerelly willing to learn, amateur magicians like myself. I don't believe that Doc's intention is to expose himself, just to have magicians to pay homage to. This unavoidably might happen, as someone can attest that this man is a rare species to encounter.

Overall, I consider myself extremelly privileged of being able to share my thoughts and interact with highly respected individuals in magic, such as yourself. I hope that our rebuttal will continue, in a friendly spirit, as I do not wish to prove anything to anybody.

Sincerely,

Yiannis
Unknown419
View Profile
Inner circle
1332 Posts

Profile of Unknown419
Tommy I don't enjoy living on the edge, I don't even like to gamble to be honest with you.

Note: In order to beat that poker game, practice Steve Forte's or the Sting's cold deck move, pre-set the hands in the bathroom and you'll be able to beat that poker game you mentioned.

Your Friend

Doc

Yiannis that was another excellent evaluation by looking at pictures and reading comprehension.

You are correct of why Walter had to do it that way. Why? Not all times when you shuffle a deck when using punch work does your cards appear at the top half of the deck so to assure that it did and at certain intervals this ruse was necessary to insure the perfect deal.

Your Friend and Wanna-be Teacher

Docholiday

P.S. I did this same feat years ago at a magic convention and it went over excellent.
Yiannis
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago USA
352 Posts

Profile of Yiannis
Dear Doc,

I would like to thank you a great deal for your previous post. I consider it an honour and I treasure this kind of respect from a person I would like to consider as my teacher. As I have said before, I've been following your posts around the internet and your comments about other people's work (like in magic video depot, were you made a very informative comment about the middle deal of a guy named fabian - this actually caught my attention and I got Andrew's video and notes).

In that respect, you've been my teacher for quite a long time now Smile When I discovered the quality of your thinking, I started to collect and record your posts. And when I watched the clips in cyngaporemagic, I started to practice with your moves as a base. I had to re-learn a great deal, but I think I'll be rewarded at the end.

There are so many things that I would like to ask you, and I'll do when I feel ready to comprehend your answers. Now, I'm busy practising my bottom deal utilizing your handling from the clip. You know, the quicktime format that you are using, provides quite handy functions. The frame by frame utility to watch the clip, is helping more than you can think!!

I have even produced a mini e-book, describing the move with accompanying frames from the clip, for my ease of practice. So, I'm not only reading between the lines, I can also watch between the frames Smile When I feel confident with my ability, I'll post my questions, the answers of which I hope will help anybody, who can make the most of what he can comprehend from reading your - full of tips, advices and many many, hints - wonderfull posts.

Doc, I'm honoured to have you as my teacher. And if you consider this interaction as the beginning of a friendship as well, the honour is even greater.

Your student and wanna-be friend

Yiannis.
Metalepsis
View Profile
Loyal user
232 Posts

Profile of Metalepsis
Is anyone else on this thread interested in lexical overlap? Just curious...

M
ASW
View Profile
Inner circle
1871 Posts

Profile of ASW
Yiannis,

I had forgotten that Scott wore a pillow case. So perhaps I am, in the end, wrong after all! (Besides, you know what they say about opinions). Mea culpa.

Mind you, how were the edge marks of use unless he had some way of seeing them? As far as he knew, the cards could have been cut, shuffled (or even switched!) while he was in the dark. (Okay, maybe not switched, LOL). Sure, McGuire was there to keep an eye on things, but he doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool in the shed.

He must have had some way of getting the additional info prior to the deal, otherwise the marks were pointless... No doubt he was asked to repeat the deal several times. Did he remove the blindfold each time? Would kind of slow things up. What does the book say? (I won't be in a position to revisit it until later next week).

You speculate that it was possible he used a sophisticated blindfold system and held stuff back from McGuire and others. Who knows in regard to the blindfold? I think it is certainly the case in regard to other areas - that's suggested in the text in the way that Scott was a mercurial figure when interviewed. The problem is, we'll never know.

My guess is that he did have some way of reading the marks despite the blindfold. And I still subscribe to the view that he was more of a demo man in the sense that Miller concluded, than a hustler who worked spots on his own or with a partner.

Best
Andrew
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
T. Joseph O'Malley
View Profile
Inner circle
Canada
1937 Posts

Profile of T. Joseph O'Malley
I cannot recall where I read it but I recall that someone asserted that Al Baker (?) partook in the switching in and out of a very prepared deck for Scott at the big black pillowcase demo. In other words the deck that the Inner Circle inspected was not in fact the one he used... Geez I could be so off here...and I hate not knowing my facts. Perhaps one of our resident scholars (Mr Roat? Mr Chosse?) will know something about this. I don't know if I believe this or not, but I'm just saying it's something I know I read somewhere... and can't recall where.
tjo'
Ethan500
View Profile
New user
26 Posts

Profile of Ethan500
Dear Doc,

I was just viewing your video files, superbly done! On your dice switch, is that a 'topit' method? In a real game do you consider the palm and thumb switch method to be inferior to the one you are using?

Any comment will be very much appreciated.

Best regards,
Ethan500
Unknown419
View Profile
Inner circle
1332 Posts

Profile of Unknown419
Ethan thanks for writing and no that's not a topit even though I do have a jacket that I can use that has a topit in it for my dice switches. This would be the second stage of my dice handling that I have not shown the public.

What you will witness if you see me work is a Carl Cloutier sleeving and topit expert combined with a person who can do Raven-like dice switches in which you just saw part two of my move. Didn't I tell ya'll that I learn from the magicians, well I do? Ethan If you would've read my previous post on this you would have known what it was without asking.

Ethan regarding your last question why would you ask such a thing? The only thing that beats a palm is a complete vanish especially if a magician like yourself is trying to see if I'm doing anything wrong or not; use your brain and ask yourself which is inferior? If I could fool a magician who knows what to look for, then I definitely wouldn't have a problem fooling a sucker.

Sometimes I just can't understand certain questions people ask. Have you ever done a coin vanish and the spectator ask to see your other hand? Well if you could do this vanish you wouldn't have this problem no matter how perfect you can palm a coin.


Your Friend

Doc

P.S. Oh, thanks for the compliment.

Andrew regarding the edge work and don't quote me on this because I'm on the road and don't have the book next to me, but I believe that when Walter had someone in the audience to shuffle the cards, as he got the deck and walked back to where ever, if he saw that the edge marks were in the lower half of the deck he would hop the deck while in the process of walking back to the table but if the edge marks were in the upper half, he would just let it be and do his Royal Flush deal.

Like I previously stated, this would insure that the trick worked 100% of the time. On the down-low, I should do this move when playing head up Tonk or Coon-Can so that I can make sure that the cards that I want are the cards that will be there when I need them.

Your Friend

Doc

Yiannis you see by Andrew re-reading and conversating with you, it shows that we all are still imperfect and that we can still learn from each other if we just take the time to listen and read; this is why I'm proud of you both.

Let's all learn from from each other and thank you Steve Brooks for making this Café where we all can hang out.

Yiannis I would be proud to be your teacher even though I didn't know you snuck into my class along time ago and started learning on your own.

I like students like this especially those who take initiative. Forum, God gave us all particular talents, let's us use it to His glory.

Yiannis Your Proud Teacher

Doc
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15911 Posts

Profile of tommy
I have no experence with edge marks.
I assume the are for lookig at but can anyone tell me if you can feel them as you deal?

If so you could deal then as in the punch.


Thanks Doc.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
slakk
View Profile
New user
100 Posts

Profile of slakk
Are punch deals a common move for an advantage player?
T. Joseph O'Malley
View Profile
Inner circle
Canada
1937 Posts

Profile of T. Joseph O'Malley
Tommy,

Punch = tactile
Edgemarks = optical

More or less, give or take.
tjo'
Unknown419
View Profile
Inner circle
1332 Posts

Profile of Unknown419
Tommy, regarding your questions, do more reading. Learn the basics first. You're moving too fast. When you have finished with that then re-read these post regarding edge work.

Slakk, any gambling move or marking system is an advantage to an advantage player. If punch deals were a common move, why is it that so many people don't know about it or do know about it but don't use it?

Because Braille is for the blind.

I've answered your question without answering it. Do some homework and stop begging for answers. If you're not trying to cheat for a living, you don't need to know these answers anyway; and if you are trying to cheat you don't want these answers out.

Doc
Yiannis
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago USA
352 Posts

Profile of Yiannis
Andrew,

When I first read the McGuire's book, long before Gazzo's book was published, I had many questions about the New York's demonstration. McGuire describes Scott's work as totally and unquestionably perfect. I couldn't figure out how he could successfully deal a hand of high cards, consisting of Kings and Aces in one round!
Wearing the pillow, and having the cards shuffled! Using only eight pegged cards in a game of, let's say five hands, the cards might not show up at all during the deal, as Doc mentioned in his post.

I came to the conclusion that the McGuire's description was superficial and not accurate at all. Only when I read Gazzo's book, about the edge work and about the Scott's presentation, that I finally understood the technique.

In the book, Gazzo says, that Scott was using a bridge deal to demonstrate his peg work, while blindfolded. He would peg the Aces, Kings, Queens and Jacks and he would very easily dealt a no-trump hand to himself. Something like the Jack Pyle's bridge demonstration in later years. Even if he was demonstrating a poker deal, the chances to deal a flush would be very high. With 16 pegged cards to control, the demonstration was much easier to conclude successfully.

You mention something very important in your post. Something that in the book is not clear enough. Scott had the cards shuffled and cut before the blindfold was put on. So, he could gauge, using the edge work, where the cards were prior to dealing blindfolded. Now, in the book it doesn't say, if the demonstration was repeated while blindfolded. It's very logical to assume, that he would have been asked to do it again.

But, it is stated in the book, that even though the other magicians were in control of the cards, Scott was always in control of the demonstration. He would not accept a condition, where he would fail to deliver his demonstration successfully.

From this remark, I conclude that if Scott could repeat the deal while blindfolded, he would do it. If not, he would use a different out, to conclude his demo successfully. A typical exhibition, with exactly this kind of thinking, is offered in page 236 of the paperback edition of Gazzo's book.

Earlier in Gazzo's book, though, there is a short paragraph with Max Holden's description of the first New York demonstration at Al Baker's house. Scott was asked to deal a six hand game in poker. At the end of the deal Scott's hand was consisting of four Kings and an Ace. Cards were shuffled and when he was asked to do it again, he dealt himself a royal high flash. This was done while blindfolded. Then, Al Baker's cards were borrowed and placed in Scott's hand. (Scafidi7, in the book it's not mentioned anything about a collusion between Al Baker and Scott, but Scott says that he used to switch decks himself when he was invited in another person's house).

This is where it is not mentioned in the description, if the blindfold was on or not. Scott proceeded to tell at which position of the deck were the Kings and Aces. If he was using only the edge work, he should have done it without the blindfold on. (Fulll description on page 68 of the paperback edition).

Overall, I believe that Walter Scott was the real thing, as far as his peg work is concerned. If he was a real cheat and if he used his remarkable skills to cheat at cards, is something that everyone would have to decide on their own. Anyone who is interested in Scott's work, should read the books, listen to other people's opinions and draw his own conclusions.

With this in mind, Andrew, I totally respect your conclusion. I also agree with you, that Scott was an excellent showman. Something that Cardini believed too and, of course, Charlie Miller.
Paul Chosse
View Profile
V.I.P.
1955 - 2010
2389 Posts

Profile of Paul Chosse
Charlie Miller is THE one guy who would know a "thief" from a thief. Consider anything ascribed to CM very carefully, it is probably the most reliable assessment available.

Some folks who know will tell you this: The wrong people got the "reps" in the magic world. But, that's how Charlie wanted it, low-key. He knew more about magic and gambling than anyone around, and HE was the real "underground" guy.

Best,

PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
Yiannis
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago USA
352 Posts

Profile of Yiannis
Dear teacher,

Regarding Andrew's expertise in the deck marking scheme, it is remarkable that in one sentence, he described all the techniques that took me five years of reading and researching to find out they exist, in the Dai Vernon's books and tapes, in Paul Rossini's, in Darwin's, in Houdini's, in Maskelyne's, in ECT and many others.

Isn't it remarkable how easily you can get the information you want, IF you can read between the lines and have an eye for things? I wish this excellent cyber-space Café where we can all interact and exchange information was there when I first started out.

Let me share my experience with card marking used for cheating. My first encounter with the concept of professional card marking was in the ECT book in 1999, when I first started out in magic after seeing the movie Sting. Prior to that time, even though I was playing cards for money in private games among friends, I was “asleep”. I originally come from Greece, where playing cards in private is a very common past time. Even though it's illegal to play for money, you can find very high stake games going almost everywhere.

The most common cheating techniques used are peeking, discard culling and memorizing, and card marking. But nothing as sophisticated as described in magic books. Forget about false dealing and shuffling, stacking, hopping the cut, etc. The methods were, and are, very, very simple. All you have to do, is misdirect, and do it when everybody is busy looking at their own hands. And let me tell you. Almost everybody is cheating in these kind of games, one way or another.

I got some of these information from a gambler I met, while I was doing my army service in 2000, a year after I discovered advanced advantage playing in cards. (He thought I was an expert in card cheating, after I showed him my ambitious card routine using a gambling theme).

He was cheating primarily using a marking system, which he was putting on the cards, during a very popular game called “Thanasis” (very similar to Coon Can). In this game, you are counting points and to write them down. Most of the time a ballpoint pen and a paper book are used. Ballpoint pens sometimes become messy and leave smudges of ink on the paper, and if you are not careful, you get ink on your hands 90% of the time when you write something down.

As this is common it doesn't arouse any suspicion when your fingertips or nails are messed with ink. This guy was deliberately putting a small smudge of ink on his forefinger's nail, and during play, he would mark the court cards on both front edges.

After the work was on, he would use it later during the game, when playing “polka” (a big family of poker type games) or “stock” (a form of blackjack). All he was doing, was keeping track of the high cards, when they were dealt around the table. But he was using this system to win big money, when the game of “stock” was played.

In this game, you are playing against the dealer, one player at a time. Cards are dealt closed to the player, one at a time. The game is blackjack and you can stop at anytime you think you can beat the dealer. Now the dealer have to deal to himself, with the objective to beat your hand, which he doesn't know. Winner is of course the person with the highest hand or when the other player's hand is busted.

This guy would “read” the marks and decide when to draw a card or not. It was because of this game that we became to know each other. At that time, I had mastered the Buckley's second deal (very similar to the technique John Scarne used in Sting) and the bubble peak. I was using them exclusively for this game.

This is what happened one day, when I was the dealer and dealing to him. Several times, he would spot a court card, which I had peeked as well and signaled me to deal it to him. But I was keeping it back to deal it in my own hand. You can imagine his frustration and surprise, when he was getting something else and could see the card still on top of the deck!

During the game he showed nothing, and after that he was not betting heavily during my deal. And I, of course, didn't suspect anything. I was very happy that my second deal was undetectable. Smile

The other day a gang of guys approached me (him included) and asked me politely if I knew any magic trick with cards. And I did a terrible mistake that Erdnase points out as the deathblow to a professional (I hadn't read his book then). Even though I'm not and I certainly wasn't a professional at that time, I couldn't participate again in another card game in the camp. I just showed them an ambitious card routine. To be exact, I used the move Vernon used to fool Houdini, a couple of times.

That was it! The news spread, everybody wanted to see some magic and nobody was willing to let me play in their game. Smile

After I became the camp's magician, this gambler and I became friends and we exchanged information about cheating at cards. Actually he was the one who instructed the guys to ask me about magic. When I showed him the second deal and how he could learn it, he quickly dismissed it as dangerous and too hard to lean. (This is similar to Tommy's thinking in a post earlier in the forum.) He also said that he had never suspected that such a thing was possible.

Anyway, that was five years ago. After I finished my service, I was able again to research more into the subject. And here I am now, learning from the professional!
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27073 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
What does it mean to you when a Yahoo blows a workable marking system just so they can save a nickle on daub for a 'find the card' trick?

As Doc said, braille is for the blind. Since it is to your advantage to keep your eyes on the players, the evident is now obvious.

And you, folks, seem to want this the common knowledge?

What's next? Going to teach people how to cut their nails?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
yussel
View Profile
New user
1 Post

Profile of yussel
Doc,

On page 122 of the Britland/Gazzo book, "Phantoms of the Card Table", Britland wrote, "The highest compliment of all was paid by gambling expert Tony Giorgio, who some years later, wrote in Genii, 'There are several magicians who use punched cards in gambling demonstrations, but I've never seen anyone who can compete with Gazzo.'"

Have you met Giorgio, or read any of his articles? He seems really to know the score.
ASW
View Profile
Inner circle
1871 Posts

Profile of ASW
Interesting comments, Yiannis.

Note that I never said Scott wasn't a hustler. I just don't think he worked games as much as he was part of the inside team in scams to cold deck some rich sucker. He would demo his incredible skills with cards before the game, and the sucker would think he was onto a dead cert. I don't need to explain how this plays out. You can read about it and even see it dramatised in movies like Shade.

Andrew

P.S. I didn't give anything sexy away in that post about marks. That's all basic stuff. Check out Ortiz's books, for example. Or the Judson Cameron book.

P.P.S. I know Tony Giorgio, though not well. I totally respect his knowledge when it comes to hustling. Note that Giorgio described Scott as a demonstrator. LOL.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15911 Posts

Profile of tommy
Quote:
On 2004-07-23 11:07, scafidi7 wrote:
Tommy,

Punch = tactile
Edgemarks = optical

More or less, give or take.


That is what the average magician thinks.

I got the idea that Walter Scott was a bit smarter than normal, and it occurred to me he might have been the one pulling the wool over the magicians' eyes. I ask myself, if he was blindfolded for real, then why use edge work that cannot be seen blindfolded? The logical answer is that he could feel it!

I am sorry, Doc, if I missed that this point is covered above. To be truthful I have not read everything and I should have.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Would a real cheat write this? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (1 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..6..9..12..15..17~18~19~20~21..29~30~31 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.27 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL