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CardiniMan Regular user Los Angeles 169 Posts |
Man I’m glad a friend told me to read these posts. I must say it's been a real pleasure following this thread. Better than most books, magic or otherwise I've been reading of late.
Doc, My grandfather was s different kind of cheat. He was a pool shark. One of the best of his time, his friends knew his as The Duke (a queens boy). Because he was black, he would never get invited to any of the high paying pool tournaments, but he would always tell me he never cared. He would still go to Vegas, or chicago or where ever they were held and wait for his "ego playing white boys" to show up to the real money games that night at the pool halls. The money the white guys won during the day, he and his buddies would take from them at night. The reason I'm bringing this up was that when I was a kid, I use to spend some of my summer at my grandparents, so my mom and dad could vacation. (Not a bad idea come to think of it, now that I have kids). At night we would always go down to the basement were the table was and we would shoot pool. It was at this time of day his friends would start to come by, most of them as my grandfather would say were "card guys but was cut from the same cloth". Skill and Acting...you could here them talk about that all the time. You cant do what we do without being the best at both. But I do remember my grandfather once saying that, being able to run fast was a good thing too. Today I can look back and remember the card guys wishing they could do what my grandfather did and vice versa. When you cheat as a pool shark, you pretty much show them your cheating right in their face...you get to show how good you are...while the card guys do it in secrecy. Being a cheat is tough to begin with, being a black cheat is a whole different world, plusses and minuses abound. I can only imagine what it's like Doc. Doc, I'm the guy who produced the tv special on Black American magicians. I also thought about doing a film on the black pool shark underground that still exists(even today blacks are not invited to major pool tournaments) but I probably wont because I know my grandfather may not have wanted me to. I remember him telling me he and his buddies where like the mafia, they don’t like to advertise. I hope someday we meet, if I get up to new york I'd love to shoot some pool with you ; ) and get some schooling on your seconds. If you ever get to chicago you should contact Bill Dennis. He's the only black marlo student I'm aware of. He's got a couple of moves that can fly past marks. He doesn't play or do magic, but one helluva great guy. Of course if you ever get down to South Florida...drop me a line Be safe, Glenn Farrington |
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
Cardiniman,
awesome post. I think you're bang on regarding the main difference between a pool hustler vs a card cheat. While I'd love to see a film about what you mentioned, you are a good grandson to respect your grandfather's wishes. thanks, T.Joseph O'Malley
tjo'
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-06-26 16:51, CardiniMan wrote: Bill Dennis!!! I used to work with Bill Dennis at Houdini's Pub in a Chicago Sub - Oak Forest! Alonge with Bill Malone... Glenn I am doing a lecture for the Ft. Myers (Don's) Magic and Fun Shop in Ft. Myers Beach FL On July 1 2004... And will be three days in Orlando FL... Perhaps we could get together...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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CardiniMan Regular user Los Angeles 169 Posts |
Hey another 2n Glenn. Malone was the one that introduced me to Bill Dennis. I sent you a private message regarding florida.
Thanks TJ. I appreciate the kind words. Glenn |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
CardiniMan that was a great read, I wish you had more... If so I'd like to read them too.
I heard of a great black old pool player while on the circuit who passed about a 1 1/2 ago, was this your grandfather? Your New Friend Doc CardiniMan you know it’s a shame that there are no great movies about our famous black hustlers that have paved the way for us new comers and has sinced passed the torch. You hear great stories about Scarne and the like but what you don’t hear about is when Scarne came to the service men showing them how they can be scammed that they rob him as well while seeing if he could do that stuff in a real game. They laughed so hard at Scarne telling him but they didn’t teach you that? And they didn’t teach you that? And I know they didn’t teach you that. I have footage of this same man Prett **** may he rest in peace, that told me that story after watching Steve Forte’s gambling series tape no. 4 on dice and got up and got his dice out and demonstrated some of his stuff and say on certain moves that he saw Steve do, “that this is what your man was trying to do.” I have to state for the record that Steve is still the best dice switching manipulator by far but my friend did a hell of a good job at what he knew; he also gave Steve his props on his ability. Oh I have to say this before I go, my teacher Billy (Willie ****) who passed a year before Prett after me showing him Steve’s tape no. 4 did every move that Steve did and more. I didn’t meet Steve at this time so my teacher amazed me when he went off showing me dice switching moves especially the ones that wasn’t on his tape. Can I Do It To answer a question that might be lingering in some of your minds. No, he didn’t teach me those dice switches because I wasn’t into dice at this time. He told me if I really wanted to learn to first practice and learn from what you see Steve is doing and only then will he show me how to do the other stuff but if I didn’t learn that, I didn’t deserve to learn anything better. For the record, I have to say that my teacher and Steve were about even in their own way but Steve was definitely better at switching then Prett but I don’t think he was at shooting the dice on a regular surface. I threw Prett two dice into an open hand in which he immediately threw out (Blacks do this to stop controlled dice shots) and he made his numbers by controlling them; that move was awesome. He showed me the move and I taped him but I still haven’t figured out how he did it even though I have a good idea. I’m just too lazy to practice it. Right now I’m like a magician who know the dice moves but don’t know how to apply it to the game of craps. So while I’m still learning what I need to know, I play the role in the crew as a sucker who don’t know how to play but can switch them in and out in an emergency. I Never Learned My teacher Billy passed on without ever teaching me those switches because of a gambler’s rule if a sucker is sleep, don’t wake him up. Yes the rule applied to me at one time too and still applies in certain areas of the trade. I didn’t know much about dice at that time and was still considered a sucker to him in this area even though I was an expert with cards. To be honest with ya’ll, I still don’t know as much as I would like but I have a dice switch that he was proud of that he said will get all the money. One day I’ll show it to ya’ll. Bottom line, after I learned something new and showed him out of excitement that I was able to do something that he couldn’t, that’s when he surprised me and showed me that he was able to do it and ONLY THEN is when he took me to the next level because I SHOWED INTEREST IN REALLY TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO DO THAT PARTICULAR MOVE. He never gave up the secret until I knew about it and this is why I can’t tell either. A magician (card-dice hustler) is never supposed to reveal the secret. Note: This is a lesson that we got from the magicians that we adhere to better than ya’ll. Your Friend Doc P.S. CardiniMan, we have our legends too but it seems at though nobody wants to hear about them except us and this is why I’m speaking out but not teaching the moves. I hope that more will do so like you because these stories has to be told no matter who tells it. |
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Pekka Special user Finland 560 Posts |
Well Doc, if you want movies someone should type the stories down. Is there a good book available on black cheats/hustlers/gamblers?
If not, may I suggest someone would start gathering stories. I believe there would be an interest for this from a variety of audience e.g. magicians, historians, academic disciplines, cultural studies etc. Certainly a worthwhile task. Come to think about, I cannot remember seeing a proper movie on Martin luther King either. Can this be true? Please tell me my memory is poor and that there are several good movies about the peaceful fighter. |
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slakk New user 100 Posts |
"Black and White Gamblers Running Wild" by John Terry Fort is an autobiography of An African American card shark and professional gambler.
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Slakk thanks for the info.
A Comment About The Movie Shade It may not be a great thing to say this here but I will. There are blacks in the gambling spots talking about how we got (Jamie Foxx) shown as suckers in the movie Shade and they don't like it even though they say it was an aight (alright) movie. One thing I did note after they talked about the movie, they started talking about how some of the great black hustlers would have ran rings around them guys; exactly what I wrote in my story in which the best of both worlds don’t lose to each other. I wrote a post speaking about how the movie should have been directed toward the black communities for better revenue but it was taken down as being discriminatory to some reader’s. I really can’t see why when it is us who you see at the major events always trying to hustle somebody. The Blacks do it on the outside and the White does it on the in. I know this occur especially at pool tournaments because my White friend’s who I hung out with were rated about 9th in the world as a 9 ball champion, so we all do run together at times. We had Monster J*** of One Pocket on our team. A Film Idea I have a friend who is now talking about doing a movie about the hustling game and he is going to school for this mess as we speak. Even though I wish it could be done, I don’t believe it will because of lack of revenue by this individual. I do have two old classmates from grade school that does have capitol and has made low budget movies who I might speak to regarding it. One did Crime Partners who I will not name and the other who I will which is Barry Cooper who did New Jack City, Above the Rim and Sugar Hill. As quiet as kept, Sugar Hill was done about my friends that I grew up with who lived across the street from Barry in 149th street between 7th and 8th Ave. Check out Ebony 1977 Crime on Crime Magazine for more info. This was around the time when Smokey Robinson was singing at the Apollo and had to run for his life when someone got shot and also when Nicky Bonds said on nation wide TV that he was so big that the President couldn’t touch him and right after that his butt got locked up with the quickness. This was all incidents related to the Drug War in Harlem. Imagine this as a movie idea. A friend inviting you to his club to show off and when you’re about to enter you stumble over a guy who’s alive, that has been nailed to the floor face down with hands and feet stretched out. This really happened back in the day in which many at the gambling spot still talk about now and then, but this was way before I ever appeared on the scene. Your Friend Doc |
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slakk New user 100 Posts |
The author mentions the punch deal in that book.
That is a great story about the joint in Harlem, where guy was nailed to the floor. It would be a great movie scene. It adds meaning to the term, "getting nailed". |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Big Julie in “Guys and Dolls” made the best dice move I ever saw.
A black man did the best flourish I ever saw, the great Sammy Davis, Jr. that was with a gun.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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slakk New user 100 Posts |
Ricky Jay's dice moves in "Deadwood" are great, too.
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appl3tard New user 14 Posts |
Doc got up a video, http://cyngaporemagic.com/doc/
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slakk New user 100 Posts |
I don't think Big Julie made any dice moves in "Guys and Dolls." He did use his own dice that had the spots removed.
Does anybody know the famous magician who played Big Julie in the stage play version, starring Milton Berle. |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
Doc, There are a few gambler/violent movies is post production at the moment.
One film is totaly Black based UK, much violence and cons. Another one is about a card player. Not too much info on this one. No titles for you as we only had a cover title for the footage.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Thanks for the information Partizan, if you think that they might need a double please let me know.
Your New Friend Doc P.S. More Stuff will be up soon. |
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LiquidSn Elite user New York 472 Posts |
That is the best dice switch I have seen. natural! no way anyone can suspect anything.
the card switch is great too! a true professional at work here. |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
LiquidSn I appreciate your compliment and thanks.
I just want to state for the record, I practice and make up stuff like this because I'm scared for my life. I don't wanna have to say I wish I would have practiced and maybe I wouldn't have gotten caught. When that time comes, I want to have no regrets. Your New Friend Doc |
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Metalepsis Loyal user 232 Posts |
I had trouble with the viewing of that movie, mates.
Any advice? M |
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
Go to the Apple Quicktime site. Make sure you have the most recent version downloaded. If not, download it and restart your PC (or Mac). Try again. If it doesn't work, try saving the item to your desktop - that's what I had to do - by right clicking on the underlined link on the page and then choosing Save.
My advice, if you have to save it to your desktop etc, would be not to pass these movies around unless Doc says it's cool to do so. That's just my 2 cents. TJO'
tjo'
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Tielie Special user 749 Posts |
DOC, that is amazing. Just amazing. I watched these video's tens of times by now and I can't get over the huge skill you have. WOW.
Deal cards, not drugs!
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