JasonEngland:

I've heared your name before, but can't recall where. Any thoughts?
DOC: thanks again for the read.

Hi Doc,
How's it going? Still raining here...

Like Jason England says, a lot of us are reading your posts and absorbing them. And we all value what you have to say, even if we don't write back with answers to questions you've posed. As mentioned by Jason, a lot of what you're writing goes over most of the reader's heads and so we would have no idea as to how you accomplish many of your feats of skill and nerve. But everything you've put up here has been thought provoking and appreciated by some. I'm still mulling over your points mentioned on the Punch.

We all know that you don't have to tell us nothing about anything, so it is appreciated greatly when you do. Keep telling it like it is.

Best of luck and be safe,
T. Joseph O'Malley

Well DOC, just about everything you say goes over my head...but I enjoy just as much (although unable to appreciate it as much I'm sure).

Why don't you write a memoir? You are clearly literate and organize your thoughts very well. You got my order...where do I send the check?

And for the screenplay idea...even better. Have it based on the book and you can get both markets. You could act as a stunt double if you are concerned about exposing your identity.

First the book, which will sell like madness amongst magicians and gamblers. Then, with all the hype, THE MOVIE. can't go wrong anymore.

Oh and when something really comes out of all this: please shoot the video in Holland and let me know

Doc,
In your experience what percentage of real full time card cheats make a comfortable living or even are wealthy? This would include cheaters who are mechanics in private card games as well as casino card cheats who may cheat by manipulating cards and chips.

Tommy, hey this is Doc thanks for writiing. I read your statement and I thought it was real and funny and to the others reading. Tommy's right.

Tom thanks for writing that, I appreciated it.

Your New Friend

Doc

Doc,
What happens when your rope is up with gambling? As you mentioned earlier, isn't word of mouth about you getting around? Are the games getting harder to find?

As you grow older (middle age and beyond) is it harder to physically cheat at the table? I know that you would have greater wisdom gained over the years, but it seems that even a slight decline in gambling skills due to age could be very, very bad.

Since cheating doesn't have a 401k plan what is your plan? Is there a way to cheat to win and save, or the day you leave cheating behind, will you have no money in your pocket? The memories will sure be sweet though.

The Answer To My Riddle

Even though no one wrote how Doc beat out Steve Forte and his team of expert cheats, this is the answer to the riddle? The suspenders were the clue.

Doc used a magic trick known to Magicians as the Jacketless Topit By Dan Sylvester

When Doc took off his shirt he wasn't really mad at all, he wanted without words to show everybody who was looking for him to do something that he couldn't possibly do anything because he had only had on a short sleeve T-shirt.

So why couldn't the cameraman see what happened? Doc's body blocked the upper view momentarily by leaning forward. When Doc completed his move and leaned back, the deck was already in his Jacketless T-Shirt Topit and since not to many people care for this gimmick and since the camera guy didn't know what to look for, Doc accomplished the move and won the money but still didn't beat out Steve for his money because he knew that something just wasn't right.

Doc




Yes I have, but I can’t. Why? You have to realize that street hustling and cheating at a casino is not the same thing. I posted already that everybody has their specialties. I don’t know anything about how to cheat at slot machines, roulette etc. and if I did I wouldn’t tell you.

Those who cheat at that would run rings around me because I haven’t the slightest idea of what to look for. This area is Steve’s specialties. This why he’s the President of International Gaming Specialties and I’m home broke.

I have the Cheating at Blackjack video and when I saw it, I said to myself, let me see if I could catch these people cheating. When I looked at it, I couldn’t see one thing that they was doing wrong. For the record, I would’ve got robbed. Like I said, no one cheater knows everything about everything and this is why I keep my butt out. LOL

You also have to realize that even though I call all the magicians that taught me my teachers, they are not cheats and they don’t know anything about cheating at any casino. They are magicians like you that have read, studied and practiced things pertaining to gambling. I mentioned Darwin Ortiz, Sal Piacente, Steve Forte and Glenn Bishop as my teachers but they are not cheats either, at least to my knowledge. They may posses the ability to cheat from what they learned but rest assured that these gentlemen are nothing but great card mechanics. I’m the cheat.

I mentioned Andrew Wimhurst, Jason England, Damian Neiman and Paul Wilson as being my teachers but who ever said that they cheat? The only reason I mentioned Sal Piacente and Steve Forte as my teachers now is not that they cheat or are cheaters, they work or used to work in surveillance at the casinos and have a better understanding of real live cheating activities then anyone else I know.

The Magicians Are My Teachers

You know why I believe that Steve is the best card mechanic there is and why I’m calling him my teacher? It’s because everybody in the United States and around the world that knows anything about cards and have any sort of reputation admires Steve, and since he is a kind-hearted guy that helps each person out as much as he can without tipping the great stuff, everybody wants to show him what they know; Steve can’t help but get better.

So how can any one cheater like myself meet as many people as Steve and match his knowledge without having the connections that he has?

The only way a person can meet as many people as Steve and have the same connections that he has is to GO TO THE MAGICIANS. This is why I was good before I met him or any experts here. THE MAGICIANS ARE REALLY MY TEACHERS; look at My Riddle Post. Anyone who tells me you shouldn’t hang around or talk to magicians. What they are telling me without words is (Doc I want you to stop learning). It is the magicians that have the answers; they just DON’T KNOW THE QUESTIONS. So while some of you here think that you’re picking my brain, I’m actually here picking yours.

So Why You Call Steve Your Teacher

Steve is my teacher because he’s a magician whose specialty is card cheating. He’s also my teacher because he let me videotape stuff that a person would normally forget when you left his presence so that I can go home and study it. Steve admired my skill but ONLY because of his friend Sal Piacente did he let me videotape him. AND NO YOU CAN’T SEE IT; IT’S FOR MY EYES ONLY.

Kind-Hearted Steve

When I went to visit Steve I went there with my last money in which no one knew. My money became short when I missed my flight the day before. I couldn’t leave my friends stranded and stuck so I had to stick it out with them. After I beat some guys I gave them the money to get home from Texas. I didn’t know at that time I was putting my self in a jam. The money for my round trip ticket that I had for the day before I totally lost and I had to pay a full price while at the airport to fly to Las Vegas. I said to hell with it and took a chance and spent my last but I was going to go meet my Idol.

After spending a couple of days with Steve, Sal, Rod, David Blaine and Allen Ackerman it was about time to go. You know I did with my last money; I went to the Gambling Book Store and bought more gambling books. Wow, now that I think about it, I must have been a nut but I had to have those books.

This is when Sal realized that I was almost down to my last $100. Sal told Steve and out of no where later on that day, Steve offered to give me a couple of hundred dollars pocket money in which I needed but I politely declined telling him if all else fails, then I would need it. He said okay, but still tried to give it to me anyway. Now you know that was genuine.

Could you believe this? This man just met me and was going to do that for me. Hey I got to give him the praise that’s due to him and tip off my hat. I didn’t take it because I was embarrassed but I also know that God doesn’t close a door unless he opens up a window and God always answers my prayer. Oh and don’t let me forget to tell you that David Blaine offered me plane fare too, in which I also politely said no thank you to.

My gambling partners who I came through for in Texas eventually got me back to Atlanta a day later where I made some more money, but if they wouldn’t have been able to do it, I knew that my mom would’ve. I just didn’t want to ask her because she gets upset; I told you so, and you know I didn’t raise your butt up that way, I don’t know where you got this *** gambling mess from, etc…LOL Hey ya’ll ain’t nobody like your momma. Hence this is another reason why I want to quit; even though I’m a great cheat, a cheat is nothing for a mother to be proud of.

Your Friend

Doc

George, DOC...

Best, PSC

Doc-

I can't wait for your book. I have many books about gambling & bio's about gamblers, but your story ranks way up there..your story MUST be told.

Thank you for your honesty in this thread. I think all of us on the Magic Café. That are taking this in, are getting a real education.

Sincerely

Rick Kirkes

Rick I would like to thank you for your compliment and I hope to one day write a book. But I need the people to ask me questions? My life is not as glamourous as some may believe that it is and the truth have to be told so these guys that do glamourize us cheats would think again and go in the right direction.

Your New Friend

Doc

Hey ***** how are you doing, I'm glad that you wrote me.

I am from ***** Georgia and I grew up and went to high school at *****. There I played a lot of Tonk. We played for a quarter a game and if you Tonked out you got paid double. When I try to picture how this game is played I can't see high stakes. You could always drop your hand and the lowest total wins so I don't understand how this works for lots of money. I would need to see a real live game of Tonk to understand.


Tonk is a big money game and it is played exactly how you said it is played. So now change the quarters to $10 or $20 a game and when you Tonk you get paid double which is $60 or $120 that hand (In a 4 handed game each pays $20 or $40).

I know you probably played high spade or low spade/heart; now add $10 or $20 for whoever wins and now that $30 or $60 more you can win. If you won $300 a night and multiply that by 365 days a year, that $109.200 a year with no taxes. You telling me that that's not high stakes. How many people do you know can make that much money in about an 1 1/2 to 2 hours. I can make it less than that but it will draw too much suspicion.






***** you may not have what it takes to do it yet because you were never placed in a position to do that. When you're broke and your wife and kids got to eat and you have to provide or else; you don't know what you'll do.

Many guys die everyday trying to save someone else’s life. They don't think that they are heroes, they know that at that moment that they had to do whatever they had to do or else. Don't think that I have guts; I'm just as scared as the next man. I do it because I have to and that guy that you think got guts, they only do because they got a gun on them.

The Bottom Line: I practice so much because I know that the man that I'm with don't really have my back if something really starts up and 2. I practice because I'm scared and I love living.

Your New Friend

Doc


Larry Barnowsky wrote:




Larry thanks for writing me.

In my experience I can only give you the percentage of what black card and dice cheats make and this will not include cheaters in private card games as well as casino card cheats? Why? You’re getting the Black culture mixed up with the White. The majority of blacks don’t play in the nice private card clubs or casinos. We play in a hole in the wall, houses and anywhere we can start up a game. We will play on a back of a car, on a park bench or in a the streets if it’s a dice game.

Chips, What are Chips? You mean potato chips? Wrong world. Next Question

I don’t know of any wealthy black card or dice cheats; I’m not saying that they’re not, I’m just saying that I don’t know of any. The wealthy blacks that I do know didn’t get their money playing cards.

A Comfortable Living

I would have to say that card and dice cheats make a very comfortable living. The lowest average cheat can make about $120,000 on a bad year no taxes. Every salary varies to how hard a gambler hustles to try to get another game and how well off his clients are. If you’re going to play cards with well known NBA players, of course your income will definitely be higher than playing at local house games. But if a man is lazy, how in the world can he make more money than you if you’re always out there trying to find a sucker or a game. The only thing that comes to a sleeper (lazy person) is a dream.

I hope that this has answered your questions.

Your Friend

Doc

Thank you Doc, this is truly a unique opportunity. Especially since in my country the culture very different from U.S and gambling and cheating are not as widespread. Hence, this may e one of the few chances for me to here the real words.

I was reading Ortiz's Gamling Scams and got very interested on proposition bets. Cheating on those is not really cheating at all, merely a misrepresentation of odds. My question is, do you use them? And are they widely used?

From a layman perspective, they seem to be a relatively easy and risk free way of achieving an edge. But is it so that too many people know them already, or more of a difficult to get the games going?

Thank you,
Sincerely,
Pekka

This has been one of the most interesing topics yet! Would you mind sharing a sticky or funny situation you got into during a game whilst hustling?

Also that comment about Guy Hollingworth under the Wimurst posts just cracks me up. Maybe someone should start a hole new topic on strange comments magicians have made?

Magician’s Have Been Lied To

90% of the card or dice cheats that cheat are bums when it comes to card or dice mechanics. The average magician here can run rings around any of these guys at any given moment. Most of these cheats which are considered Jap Wise because Japanese are smart people, may have sat down with a guy who knew a little something and demonstrated some elementary moves and showed him how to mark cards. Now he thinks that he has all the sense and can spot a cheat because he saw a guy demonstrate some basic elementary cheating moves. In all actuality, all this guy might know is marked cards and still can’t even do a basic second deal. What these guys will do is “look you out of your money if you play them.”

Mostly any magician here that can do a second deal or a bottom deal bad or good, will be rated as an expert to any of these cheats I just mentioned. This is why when magicians give gambling demonstrations, most of the people always say I wouldn’t play cards with you or I need to bring you to one of my games. These people along with the cheats that I mentioned above don’t know !@#$%.

The next level of cheater’s are still not at the level of any of you magicians here but ya’ll don’t know that. The next level is doing an overhand run-up, a second deal, maybe a bottom deal, hand mucking (the swing) and cutting to a crimp. This level right here to all cheats is considered to be an expert level.

The Magician’s Problem

The magician’s problem is that they have been lied to and are only hearing about the exceptional cheats like Allen Kennedy, Walter Scott, Dad Stevens, Erdnase and myself. They are told that every cheater that cheats posses our ability, which is the biggest lie ever told by magicians to magicians so that the presenting magician could look more like an expert than he actually is when he presents his gambling demonstration; It’s nothing but a hype. This is why I stated in my second deal post that was taken down that the best cheats that I ever saw started out as magicians.

Why Magicians Don’t Excel

A cheater is nothing more than a magician whose stage is the card table and his audience the card players. These cheating magicians see things that happen or opportunities at a table that a regular magician would never see because he doesn’t play cards. The cheating magician then go home and adapt his tricks or cheating methods to the condition in which he saw an opportunity to do it. This right here is what makes top magicians excel and this is why the magicians are my teachers. When I see a move or trick that can be adapted to the card table, I practice it. This is the reason I was good before I met the top mechanics.

One more reason why the magicians don’t excel at gambling moves is because you don’t need it. People by force of habit or unconsciously only practice that which they need. Why practice gambling moves when 9 out of 10 times you’re going to show a magic trick. I do magic, but 9 out of 10 times I’m going to gamble; therefore I practice what I need.

I hope that this has been some help.

Your Friend

Doc

I loved your post Doc,

I feel that it takes the same nerve to cheat at the card table as it takes for a magician to get out there on the stage and do a show.

One of the things that sets us on different roads is that cheating is in the advantage player's human nature.

And fooling people is in the magicians human nature.

How the ability to cheat being in the advantage players human nature is a question. It could be one of those rules in our belief system that our conscious mind makes with our sub conscious mind.

I could write more about how the conscious mind makes deals with our subconscious mind but that would be long and wordy and muck up a really great post!

Does anyone know how old Steve Forte was when he made his gambling pro series1-4?
And how much did or does he pratice per day? How many hours per day I mean?

Steve was ~ 28 when he made those tapes, give or take a year or so. He claims not to practice much anymore (don't believe him), but was an animal in his youth.

Jason

I do not think you have to pratice a lot the things you have mastered. It's a bit like learning to ride a bike you do not forget how to do it. The hours of practice come with the things you just can not do well. That's how I find it. I might not be right, perhaps I should practice what I think I do well.

Thanks Jason, for the info!

Tommy, I have to disagree. The sleights you have "mastered" will still take practice to maintain or your skills will deteriorate.

Jason, how many hours a day do you practice as I am always being told your one of the top cardmen.

Last question, is it true Charlie Miller used to say you should practice between 55-70 hrs a week?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

It's the quality of the practice that matters.