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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Bottom deal grips (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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liamwilson1125
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Do you guys know any bottom deal grips other than the ones below? Thanks a lot.

1. Erdnase original grip
2. 1st modified Erdnase grip
3. 2nd modified Erdnase grip - Gene Maze grip
4. Mechanic's/ Dealer's grip
5. Master/ Modified master grip
6. Straddle grip
Bobbycash
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Full Grip bottom deal (Robinson/Walton)
liamwilson1125
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Quote:
On Aug 1, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Full Grip bottom deal (Robinson/Walton)

Thanks Bob, is this available on video?
NicholasD
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Quote:
On Aug 1, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Full Grip bottom deal (Robinson/Walton)

Thanks Bob, is this available on video?


I believe Peter Duffie has it on one of his Move Mastery DVD's.
liamwilson1125
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On Aug 1, 2018, NicholasD wrote:

I believe Peter Duffie has it on one of his Move Mastery DVD's.


Thanks Nicholas, will definitely check it out
JasonEngland
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Someone's been reading my notes.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
liamwilson1125
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On Aug 2, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:
Someone's been reading my notes.

Jason


Hi Jason. There is a grip that I forgot to mention in my post - Marnase grip. After looking at it may I ask is it similar to the 1st modified Erdnase grip? This is because the forefinger is placed very close to the middle finger of the holding hand. Thank you.
Bobbycash
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Liam,
The full grip bottom deal is taught on Move Mastery Volume 3, Peter also demos the Robinson middle deal on the disc but doesn’t tip it (Paul Wilson did a brief demo of his take on it for me once, but because his hands were covered in lemon juice it wasn’t as smooth as usual)
Peterson
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On Aug 3, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
(Paul Wilson did a brief demo of his take on it for me once, but because his hands were covered in lemon juice it wasn’t as smooth as usual)


https://qz.com/986221/what-know-it-alls-......petence/
Cagliostro
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@Peterson: Thanks for the heads-up on lemon juice. I have been smearing lemon juice on my hands when I play BJ to make them invisible to the camera. Wow, I could be in trouble if they play back those tapes.

Say, how about vinegar. Does that work any better?
Peterson
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@Cagliostro I feel like we are about to expose some REAL work here. Are you not supposed to mix any marking system with balsamico in order to smell it before you see it?

There seems to be a lot of confrontations about the "grips" in a gambling discussion. Some say to use whatever grip they want and nobody will care if it looks natural. Same say to use the grip that everybody else is using. Personally, I would choke if I saw somebody busting out the good old Erdnease Grip in a card game, or even the "Straddle grip".
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Aug 3, 2018, Peterson wrote:

Some say to use whatever grip they want and nobody will care if it looks natural. Same say to use the grip that everybody else is using. Personally, I would choke if I saw somebody busting out the good old Erdnase Grip in a card game, or even the "Straddle grip".



No disrespect meant to anyone on the BB, but it is sometimes surprising how some magicians and demonstrators are misinformed about the gambling demos they do. The reason is many simply lack experience in live game activity.

If the grip works and it fits into the games one plays without suspicion, what difference does I make what grip or grip designation one uses.

Even a highly respected magician like Dai Vernon was sometimes in error about comparing magician demo moves and live actions game techniques. I recall a great many years ago at the Magic Castle, I was sitting at a card table in a "private" room at that time with Vernon, Jay Ose, Larry Jennings and another magician whom I don't recall. Vernon was pontificating about the great merits of the Erdnase Grip for bottom dealing. (Although I respected Vernon greatly for the tremendous advances and contributions he made to the magic profession and closeup magic in particular, he was not really that "hip" to live game application. That makes sense since he was first and foremost a magician, not a gambler.)

Anyway, Vernon was explaining how the Erdnase grip had great cover for the bottom deal and that pushing off the bottom card with the left ring finger enabled one to more assuredly deal a bottom without missing even when using a worn-out deck.

During Vernon's discourse, which apparently he was fond to do, Tony Giorgio walked into the room because he had heard that a pit boss from Vegas was visiting with Vernon.

In any event, Giorgio interrupts and tells Vernon he doesn't know what he is talking about, that he has a magician mentality and using the Erdnase grip in a game will get you killed. Vernon retorted back that Giorgio was just another tin horn gambler and always will be a tinhorn. (Of course this was all in good humored jest.)

Although Giorgio evidently used the mechanic's grip for bottom dealing at the Castle, he did give a nice demo of his "square john" grip for dealing bottoms in live games. He maintained one had to use such a grip to allay suspicion as the Erdnase grip would "wake the dead" in many situations.

I agreed with Giorgio on that (Giorgio had really "been there") and subsequently modified the deal he showed for my own use. It made fo a very nice bottom deal "square john" style.
Dannydoyle
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Gambling moves are designed to go unnoticed. Interestingly enough I have seen many a gambling move that out of context from the environment you would probably think that it would never fly.

Isn't the only point in actual gambling moves to get the money? Pretty doesn't necessarily pay.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Thomas Gilroy
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I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment?
liamwilson1125
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Quote:
On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment?


You can check out Modified Master Grip with Bottom Deal video of Shade, released by MagicTao years ago
liamwilson1125
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On Aug 3, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Liam,
The full grip bottom deal is taught on Move Mastery Volume 3, Peter also demos the Robinson middle deal on the disc but doesn’t tip it (Paul Wilson did a brief demo of his take on it for me once, but because his hands were covered in lemon juice it wasn’t as smooth as usual)


Thanks Bob
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment?


I've spent hundreds of hours around Richard watching him handle cards. Although he may be capable of dealing from a few different grips, he usually uses a mechanic's grip for bottoms. Nothing terribly special about it as I recall, apart from him dealing very nice bottoms from it.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Aug 2, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 2, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:
Someone's been reading my notes.

Jason


Hi Jason. There is a grip that I forgot to mention in my post - Marnase grip. After looking at it may I ask is it similar to the 1st modified Erdnase grip? This is because the forefinger is placed very close to the middle finger of the holding hand. Thank you.


I've always felt that the deal described in Marlo Without Tears is essentially just a modified-Erdnase grip (of the first variety). Marlo may have been the first to publish such a modification - I'm not sure about that though., I'd have to double check.


Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Thomas Gilroy
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Quote:
On Aug 11, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

I've spent hundreds of hours around Richard watching him handle cards. Although he may be capable of dealing from a few different grips, he usually uses a mechanic's grip for bottoms. Nothing terribly special about it as I recall, apart from him dealing very nice bottoms from it.

Jason


Hi Jason, thank you for commenting.

From watching Richard's DVDs and Penguin Live lecture, it seemed to me that his index finger ran under the deck and controlled the deck at the corner, with the other fingers running mostly parallel. There didn't seem to be much obstructing the front of the deck. I thought, maybe mistakenly, that a Mechanic's grip specifically referred to a grip with the index finger at the front of the deck, no front corner control and the inside corner at the base of the thumb.

I figured that the front corner control, or lack thereof, was what distinguished the first and second modified Erdnase grips (as explained on your Theory 11 videos). For this reason, I don't really see how the grip I thought Richard was using could be described as a Mechanic's grip. I'll have to look at it again.
liamwilson1125
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[/quote]

I've always felt that the deal described in Marlo Without Tears is essentially just a modified-Erdnase grip (of the first variety). Marlo may have been the first to publish such a modification - I'm not sure about that though., I'd have to double check.

Jason [/quote]

Thanks Jason, look forward to hearing your confirmation.
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