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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts |
Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s it is at 4:42 |
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liamwilson1125 New user 90 Posts |
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On Aug 15, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote: Thanks Taylor. |
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 15, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote: This post is not meant to detract from Paul Wilson in any way but to objectively discuss his bottom deal technique shown herein. (The videos link does not start at 4:42. You have to back it up to 4:42 to see the start of the trick.) Wilson has produced and been involved in a number of interesting TV videos and films exposing various gambling scams amd stories (for public consumption) and additionally no doubt is a skillful card manipulator in magician and card-man circles. However, the "full-grip" bottom deal he demonstrates on this video leaves much to be desired. He is using what I call the "pinkie grip" where the deck is held and controlled by the left pinkie pressing the lower portion of the deck again the left palm. The reason this bottom deal technique is questionable is he obviously extends the first three fingers of his left hand to enable the right-hand fingers to "dig in" above those left hand fingers to grab the bottom card. When using this grip, a bottom deal can be performed better and more deceptively than shown by making some modifications to the grip and the dealing technique. However, I should add that for the magic trick in question, the deal probably is acceptable since he is not doing a bottom deal demo as such and even if the spectators see the finger flash on the bottom deal, they still don't know how he controlled the aces. Maskelyne in Sharps and Flats describes a somewhat similar full deck grip bottom deal by dealing the cards off the upper front end (or narrow end) of the deck which also not a very deceptive way to perform this manipulation. Those who are knowledgeable and interested can experiment on their own with slightly different left-hand grips and right hand takes using the pinkie grip control. (In fact, my modification of the Giorgio square john bottom deal starts with the pinkie grip but relinquishes it for the actual right hand take.) Once again, this post was not meant to criticize Paul Wilson or his card handling ability since he is accomplished magician and producer in his own right. It is simply to add some comments on the bottom deal technique as shown on the video. |
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iamslow Inner circle Proffessional Slacker 2001 Posts |
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On Aug 19, 2018, Bobbycash wrote: I think you meant fred Robinson
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
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On Aug 21, 2018, iamslow wrote: Correct! I blame autocorrect. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
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On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote: Just noticed this exact thing watching the Richard Turner Penguin lecture. When he teaches the bottom deal, he uses his left index finger on the corner of the deck in the same place that the Erdnase grip places the second finger, albeit just on the bottom corner. In the lecture, Richard says that this gives the ability to be relaxed and yet have total control over the deck when necessary.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
Just got a hold of Damian Nieman's Fast Company dvds and the second bottom he teaches uses this grip also. He uses the index finger on the corner of the deck to bow the bottom cards a little before doing the squeeze/relax thing.
For me, this really helps to keep extra cards from coming off, especially when working with a full deck. Would this be considered a modified mechanics grip? Or something different?
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely.
First finger up front all by itself? Mechanic's Grip. Two fingers up front that looks something like what Erdnase published? Erdnase gripish. All four fingers on the side? Moron's grip. Excuse me, "full grip." First finger up front and 4th finger at the back? Straddle grip. After that you're on your own. Jason PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
Fair enough!
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Sep 22, 2018, JasonEngland wrote: LOL. Further, with the four basic grips Jason mentions, it is possible to have an almost infinite number of variations by having minute finger change positions, degrees of elevation, angle from the palm, position of the dealing thumb, etc. etc. etc. Quote:
PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it. Well...not until this thread anyway. Come on Jason. Get with it. |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
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Last Laugh wrote: I bought Steve Forte's Poker Protection recently. In the the section on false deals, he calls this grip variation a "Corner Grip." I still think the grip still looks and feels distinctly different from the typical Mechanic's Grip with the index finger at the front. Quote:
JasonEngland wrote: Is that really a good argument against a finer classification though? There are many disciplines of study which have benefited from adopting finer classifications centuries after their inception. It might be redundant to have a complete, exhaustive classification for practical purposes. The classification you've presented is certainly a valuable practical guide (it certainly gave me a good conceptual foundation when first learning the bottom deal), but it might give the impression to some that those basic finger positions are the only important variable. An comprehensive description of grips and the associated variables wouldn't help beginners, but I think the more intermediate and advanced students could benefit from that level of analysis. Experts such as yourself wouldn't have any need of it. You already understand the minutia, whether it's something you've explicitly acknowledged and studied privately, or something you are subconsciously aware of due to intuition and experience. Maybe I'm just being overly analytical, but I think further distinction has at least helped me in my understanding. For example, I distinguish between a "Dealer's Grip" and a "Mechanic's Grip," which is something I've never seen expressed anywhere, but it definitely helped me. I shared this with Last Laugh on this forum at the following link, he said he found it helpful also. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=188 Quote:
JasonEngland wrote: This raises a question. How much variation is subtle and how much would require new categorization? Quote:
Cagliostro wrote: Actually, those are continuously varying parameters, so the number of variations is truly infinite. Those are all important variables, and their effects are rarely (if ever) discussed. |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Thomas,
I'm actually in favor of a finer taxonomy of grips, shuffles, double-lifts, palms, etc. I was mainly pointing out that up until now no one has really bothered to break down their dealing grips any further than the 4 big categories I mentioned earlier. So to look backwards and ask, "Did magician X really use a mechanic's grip? Looks more like a mechanic's grip 2.1 to me." isn't likely to gain much traction for a while, at least until a finer classification system is firmly in place. Is it okay to look forward and differentiate your grips from "standard" grips? Of course. And I'm in favor of it, as it can provide value to new students. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
Hi Jason,
Thank you for clarifying. When I first read your earlier post, it had seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of finer classification. On the matter of finer classification, it occurs to me that you would be in a stronger position to lead that movement than most, being recognized as both an expert and as an excellent instructor in this area. That's a pretty select group to belong to. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote: I agree. I can think of no better person to undertake classification of the infinite minutia of bottom deal grip positioning, no matter how many years the undertaking may take. My only suggestion to Jason at this point would be for him to hire a research team of dedicated bottom deal professionals to assist with this momentous task. I can only hope that Jason will keep us updated on his daily progress in this important research and classification endeavor. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
I know you are merely being facetious here, but let's not lose sight of the point. The bottom deal is a complicated and idiosyncratic sleight, and the devil is in the details. I know personally, the 'corner grip' really helped me, and though it's a 'minor' variation, it's the detail that helped me get to be able to deal a bottom from the entire deck. Clearly, it works for Richard Turner and Damian Nieman as well.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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TH10111 Regular user 155 Posts |
Should this granular dichotomy of grips be agnostic of hand size?
If not, then hand shapes and sizes would also have to be categorised. To what extent are the deviations from 'the big four' simply down to differences in the users hands? Maybe there are only a few grips to be added to the main list, like the Modified Erdnase and the Master grip, and alongside each could be a description of finer adjustments for hand size? |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 25, 2018, Cagliostro wrote: Classification of infinite minutia need not be an infinite, or even a particularly time consuming task. The efficient way to do it would be to identify the variables which affect the bottom deal, there are only finitely many including those you have mentioned earlier. Now, demonstrate typical a typical value of that variable, and demonstrate the extremes in either direction (through pictures, video, whatever). Discuss the effects of changing this variable value within that range. Mention if any positions are unnatural or odd looking to spectators, or if they are likely to result in repetitive strain or not. Repeat for the other variables. Such a classification wouldn't need to be exhaustive. Discussing the effects of the most important variables would be more than sufficient. As a book, I'd be very surprised if it went over 200 pages. The point would be to provide a resource to help serious students improve. It would likely be a niche product and likely wouldn't be priced cheaply. For somebody to write this book and have it be accepted as the canonical reference on the topic for advanced students, that person would need to be a recognized expert in bottom dealing with a deep understanding of the variations of the move, and be an excellent instructor also. They would need to be able to demonstrate standard handlings and extreme variations on those handlings. It would be acceptable also if the author had access to other experts to demonstrate the handlings they were not comfortable with themselves. It would be very helpful if they wrote in a careful and considered manner. Now, who could really do it? I can't. I'm not an expert, nor am I recognized as one. My understanding is that of a developing student. There's a great many handlings I cannot demonstrate well and I don't have access to other people who could. I think I write clearly and I'm an experienced instructor in other fields, but that's the extent of my qualifications here. Nobody would, or should, take anything I have to say about the move above the word of the experts. What about Jason? He can, he meets all criteria. If he's looking for a book project to undertake, it's an idea. If he's not interested, maybe some other expert would be interested in the project, or maybe not. A finer classification of sleights for pedagogy won't be adopted until some recognized experts get behind the idea and push. It's up to them if that's something they're interested in doing. |
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KardSharp89 New user 17 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 3, 2018, Cagliostro wrote: Did you realize at the time that you were witnessing a great moment in card manipulation history? Cool story!
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts |
Found this on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otqo6SrYdMw |
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