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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Bottom deal grips (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Taylor Haws
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Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s
it is at 4:42
liamwilson1125
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:
Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s
it is at 4:42


Thanks Taylor.
Bobbycash
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Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:

Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s

It is at 4:42


This post is not meant to detract from Paul Wilson in any way but to objectively discuss his bottom deal technique shown herein. (The videos link does not start at 4:42. You have to back it up to 4:42 to see the start of the trick.)

Wilson has produced and been involved in a number of interesting TV videos and films exposing various gambling scams amd stories (for public consumption) and additionally no doubt is a skillful card manipulator in magician and card-man circles. However, the "full-grip" bottom deal he demonstrates on this video leaves much to be desired.

He is using what I call the "pinkie grip" where the deck is held and controlled by the left pinkie pressing the lower portion of the deck again the left palm.

The reason this bottom deal technique is questionable is he obviously extends the first three fingers of his left hand to enable the right-hand fingers to "dig in" above those left hand fingers to grab the bottom card. When using this grip, a bottom deal can be performed better and more deceptively than shown by making some modifications to the grip and the dealing technique.

However, I should add that for the magic trick in question, the deal probably is acceptable since he is not doing a bottom deal demo as such and even if the spectators see the finger flash on the bottom deal, they still don't know how he controlled the aces.

Maskelyne in Sharps and Flats describes a somewhat similar full deck grip bottom deal by dealing the cards off the upper front end (or narrow end) of the deck which also not a very deceptive way to perform this manipulation.

Those who are knowledgeable and interested can experiment on their own with slightly different left-hand grips and right hand takes using the pinkie grip control. (In fact, my modification of the Giorgio square john bottom deal starts with the pinkie grip but relinquishes it for the actual right hand take.)

Once again, this post was not meant to criticize Paul Wilson or his card handling ability since he is accomplished magician and producer in his own right. It is simply to add some comments on the bottom deal technique as shown on the video.
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie.


I think you meant fred Robinson Smile
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Bobbycash
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Quote:
On Aug 21, 2018, iamslow wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 19, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie.


I think you meant fred Robinson Smile


Correct! I blame autocorrect.
Last Laugh
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On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment?



Just noticed this exact thing watching the Richard Turner Penguin lecture. When he teaches the bottom deal, he uses his left index finger on the corner of the deck in the same place that the Erdnase grip places the second finger, albeit just on the bottom corner. In the lecture, Richard says that this gives the ability to be relaxed and yet have total control over the deck when necessary.


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Last Laugh
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Just got a hold of Damian Nieman's Fast Company dvds and the second bottom he teaches uses this grip also. He uses the index finger on the corner of the deck to bow the bottom cards a little before doing the squeeze/relax thing.

For me, this really helps to keep extra cards from coming off, especially when working with a full deck. Would this be considered a modified mechanics grip? Or something different?
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JasonEngland
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Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely.

First finger up front all by itself? Mechanic's Grip.
Two fingers up front that looks something like what Erdnase published? Erdnase gripish.
All four fingers on the side? Moron's grip. Excuse me, "full grip."
First finger up front and 4th finger at the back? Straddle grip.

After that you're on your own.

Jason

PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it.
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Last Laugh
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Fair enough!
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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Sep 22, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely.


LOL. Further, with the four basic grips Jason mentions, it is possible to have an almost infinite number of variations by having minute finger change positions, degrees of elevation, angle from the palm, position of the dealing thumb, etc. etc. etc.

Quote:
PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it.


Well...not until this thread anyway.

Come on Jason. Get with it. Smile Smile
Thomas Gilroy
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Last Laugh wrote:
For me, this really helps to keep extra cards from coming off, especially when working with a full deck. Would this be considered a modified mechanics grip? Or something different?


I bought Steve Forte's Poker Protection recently. In the the section on false deals, he calls this grip variation a "Corner Grip."

I still think the grip still looks and feels distinctly different from the typical Mechanic's Grip with the index finger at the front.

Quote:
JasonEngland wrote:
Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely.


Is that really a good argument against a finer classification though? There are many disciplines of study which have benefited from adopting finer classifications centuries after their inception.

It might be redundant to have a complete, exhaustive classification for practical purposes. The classification you've presented is certainly a valuable practical guide (it certainly gave me a good conceptual foundation when first learning the bottom deal), but it might give the impression to some that those basic finger positions are the only important variable.

An comprehensive description of grips and the associated variables wouldn't help beginners, but I think the more intermediate and advanced students could benefit from that level of analysis. Experts such as yourself wouldn't have any need of it. You already understand the minutia, whether it's something you've explicitly acknowledged and studied privately, or something you are subconsciously aware of due to intuition and experience.

Maybe I'm just being overly analytical, but I think further distinction has at least helped me in my understanding. For example, I distinguish between a "Dealer's Grip" and a "Mechanic's Grip," which is something I've never seen expressed anywhere, but it definitely helped me. I shared this with Last Laugh on this forum at the following link, he said he found it helpful also.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=188

Quote:
JasonEngland wrote:
PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it.


This raises a question. How much variation is subtle and how much would require new categorization?

Quote:
Cagliostro wrote:
Further, with the four basic grips Jason mentions, it is possible to have an almost infinite number of variations by having minute finger change positions, degrees of elevation, angle from the palm, position of the dealing thumb, etc. etc. etc.


Actually, those are continuously varying parameters, so the number of variations is truly infinite. Those are all important variables, and their effects are rarely (if ever) discussed.
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Thomas,

I'm actually in favor of a finer taxonomy of grips, shuffles, double-lifts, palms, etc. I was mainly pointing out that up until now no one has really bothered to break down their dealing grips any further than the 4 big categories I mentioned earlier. So to look backwards and ask, "Did magician X really use a mechanic's grip? Looks more like a mechanic's grip 2.1 to me." isn't likely to gain much traction for a while, at least until a finer classification system is firmly in place.

Is it okay to look forward and differentiate your grips from "standard" grips? Of course. And I'm in favor of it, as it can provide value to new students.

Jason
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Thomas Gilroy
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Hi Jason,

Thank you for clarifying. When I first read your earlier post, it had seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of finer classification.

On the matter of finer classification, it occurs to me that you would be in a stronger position to lead that movement than most, being recognized as both an expert and as an excellent instructor in this area. That's a pretty select group to belong to.
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Quote:
On Sep 25, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:

Hi Jason,

...When I first read your earlier post, it had seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of finer classification.

On the matter of finer classification, it occurs to me that you would be in a stronger position to lead that movement than most, being recognized as both an expert and as an excellent instructor in this area...


I agree. I can think of no better person to undertake classification of the infinite minutia of bottom deal grip positioning, no matter how many years the undertaking may take. My only suggestion to Jason at this point would be for him to hire a research team of dedicated bottom deal professionals to assist with this momentous task.

I can only hope that Jason will keep us updated on his daily progress in this important research and classification endeavor. Smile
Last Laugh
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I know you are merely being facetious here, but let's not lose sight of the point. The bottom deal is a complicated and idiosyncratic sleight, and the devil is in the details. I know personally, the 'corner grip' really helped me, and though it's a 'minor' variation, it's the detail that helped me get to be able to deal a bottom from the entire deck. Clearly, it works for Richard Turner and Damian Nieman as well.
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TH10111
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Should this granular dichotomy of grips be agnostic of hand size?

If not, then hand shapes and sizes would also have to be categorised.

To what extent are the deviations from 'the big four' simply down to differences in the users hands?

Maybe there are only a few grips to be added to the main list, like the Modified Erdnase and the Master grip, and alongside each could be a description of finer adjustments for hand size?
Thomas Gilroy
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Quote:
On Sep 25, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

I agree. I can think of no better person to undertake classification of the infinite minutia of bottom deal grip positioning, no matter how many years the undertaking may take. My only suggestion to Jason at this point would be for him to hire a research team of dedicated bottom deal professionals to assist with this momentous task.

I can only hope that Jason will keep us updated on his daily progress in this important research and classification endeavor. Smile


Classification of infinite minutia need not be an infinite, or even a particularly time consuming task.

The efficient way to do it would be to identify the variables which affect the bottom deal, there are only finitely many including those you have mentioned earlier. Now, demonstrate typical a typical value of that variable, and demonstrate the extremes in either direction (through pictures, video, whatever). Discuss the effects of changing this variable value within that range. Mention if any positions are unnatural or odd looking to spectators, or if they are likely to result in repetitive strain or not. Repeat for the other variables.

Such a classification wouldn't need to be exhaustive. Discussing the effects of the most important variables would be more than sufficient. As a book, I'd be very surprised if it went over 200 pages. The point would be to provide a resource to help serious students improve. It would likely be a niche product and likely wouldn't be priced cheaply.

For somebody to write this book and have it be accepted as the canonical reference on the topic for advanced students, that person would need to be a recognized expert in bottom dealing with a deep understanding of the variations of the move, and be an excellent instructor also. They would need to be able to demonstrate standard handlings and extreme variations on those handlings. It would be acceptable also if the author had access to other experts to demonstrate the handlings they were not comfortable with themselves. It would be very helpful if they wrote in a careful and considered manner.

Now, who could really do it? I can't. I'm not an expert, nor am I recognized as one. My understanding is that of a developing student. There's a great many handlings I cannot demonstrate well and I don't have access to other people who could. I think I write clearly and I'm an experienced instructor in other fields, but that's the extent of my qualifications here. Nobody would, or should, take anything I have to say about the move above the word of the experts.

What about Jason? He can, he meets all criteria. If he's looking for a book project to undertake, it's an idea. If he's not interested, maybe some other expert would be interested in the project, or maybe not.

A finer classification of sleights for pedagogy won't be adopted until some recognized experts get behind the idea and push. It's up to them if that's something they're interested in doing.
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Quote:
On Aug 3, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 3, 2018, Peterson wrote:

Some say to use whatever grip they want and nobody will care if it looks natural. Same say to use the grip that everybody else is using. Personally, I would choke if I saw somebody busting out the good old Erdnase Grip in a card game, or even the "Straddle grip".



No disrespect meant to anyone on the BB, but it is sometimes surprising how some magicians and demonstrators are misinformed about the gambling demos they do. The reason is many simply lack experience in live game activity.

If the grip works and it fits into the games one plays without suspicion, what difference does I make what grip or grip designation one uses.

Even a highly respected magician like Dai Vernon was sometimes in error about comparing magician demo moves and live actions game techniques. I recall a great many years ago at the Magic Castle, I was sitting at a card table in a "private" room at that time with Vernon, Jay Ose, Larry Jennings and another magician whom I don't recall. Vernon was pontificating about the great merits of the Erdnase Grip for bottom dealing. (Although I respected Vernon greatly for the tremendous advances and contributions he made to the magic profession and closeup magic in particular, he was not really that "hip" to live game application. That makes sense since he was first and foremost a magician, not a gambler.)

Anyway, Vernon was explaining how the Erdnase grip had great cover for the bottom deal and that pushing off the bottom card with the left ring finger enabled one to more assuredly deal a bottom without missing even when using a worn-out deck.

During Vernon's discourse, which apparently he was fond to do, Tony Giorgio walked into the room because he had heard that a pit boss from Vegas was visiting with Vernon.

In any event, Giorgio interrupts and tells Vernon he doesn't know what he is talking about, that he has a magician mentality and using the Erdnase grip in a game will get you killed. Vernon retorted back that Giorgio was just another tin horn gambler and always will be a tinhorn. (Of course this was all in good humored jest.)

Although Giorgio evidently used the mechanic's grip for bottom dealing at the Castle, he did give a nice demo of his "square john" grip for dealing bottoms in live games. He maintained one had to use such a grip to allay suspicion as the Erdnase grip would "wake the dead" in many situations.

I agreed with Giorgio on that (Giorgio had really "been there") and subsequently modified the deal he showed for my own use. It made fo a very nice bottom deal "square john" style.


Did you realize at the time that you were witnessing a great moment in card manipulation history? Cool story!
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Taylor Haws
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