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Close.Up.Dave
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Did anyone watch the last episode of %&$&*&**! with Penn and Teller? They were discussing how recycling is worse for the environment (except for aluminum cans) and that landfill and trees are not running out at all. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Payne
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This is old news. Recycling does little more than make people feel good about their excessive consumption. It generally takes more energy and resources to recycle than it does to make it from scratch. The only thing that makes sense to recycle is aluminium as there is a considerable energy savings there.
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Chris Berry
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It's the tree huggers that are telling you it is more beneficial!!


I always had a feeling recycling didn't do much more. It does make peopel feel good, like they are doing something worth while.

I remember when I was little and needed money, I would save up soda cans and turn those in for recycling.

Chris
ChrisZampese
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Hmm, but I wonder what sort of energy it uses up? Here in NZ, we have a reasonable amount of Hydro generated energy. This is a fairly renewable resource, so to use a large amount of it to recycle, say...plastics for instance, is probably still beneficial, as we are reducing landfill without risking a non-renewable resource. Sounds good to me!
I understand that it wouldnt make sense to burn 3 trees to recycle one, but when we can, it is nice to try to leave the world looking a little bit tidy!
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Jason Wethington
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Whoa Whoa Whoa... Recycling doesn't help?

Landfills ARE getting bigger. We create so much waste that it is inevitable for our landfills to expand. The thinking that it won't, will ruin this planet for future generations. We are rapidly using up fossil fuels.
You cannot convince me that this planet contains an infinite amount of fossil fuel for us to use. Can you?
Furthermore, recycling paper enables trees that we have replanted to live longer, providing this planet with organisms that have existed millenia before us. Re-planting trees is a great step but to think that it replaces the damage of the de-forrestation we have done in the past is idiotic. The reason recycling doesn't create more of an impact is the lack of people doing it. I try to respect this planet for it's ability to give and sustain life to it's inhabitants. I only wish others would respect it as well.
The number of people on this planet is increasing. The amount of waste we generate is increasing. It is the law of numbers. This isn't about "tree-hugging" but if you don't understand that these things ARE alive and our actions today affect the future then perhaps there is no hope for our poor planet.
Jonathan Townsend
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Sorry to say BUT yes.

And Styrofoam is in fact an easily reusable material. Chopped or BURNT or chemically disolved... wonderful material!

And the paper cups that you drink from, covered in wax DO NOT decompose. Go figure.
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Caleb Strange
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I didn't watch the programme, so I can't comment on it specifically. Certainly, many of the 'solutions' we employ to sort out our environmental problems are often little more than salves to the conscience. However, that's not to say things are just fine the way they are...

Fossil fuels can never be an infinite resource, by their very nature. A scientist at the University of Utah calculated the 'true cost of petrol'. Apparently, 98 tons of foliage had to grow in the Carboniferous Period to deliver just 1 gallon of gasoline. 'Can you imagine,' he asked, 'loading 40 acres of wheat - stalks, roots and all - into your car every 20 miles?' Try that reframe on for size when you next drive a couple of hundred yards to pick up a pint of milk from the local shop.

Jason wrote:

'This isn't about "tree-hugging" but if you don't understand that these things ARE alive and our actions today affect the future then perhaps there is no hope for our poor planet.'

Absolutely. One more set of figures that has relevance here. In 2002 a survey was done of UK 17-20 olds about their travel habits. 20% of them professed to having taken only ONE walk of over 20 minutes in the previous year. And we wonder why we're obese...

Regards,

Caleb Strange.
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Close.Up.Dave
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Quote:
On 2004-05-08 12:05, Jason Wethington wrote:
Whoa Whoa Whoa... Recycling doesn't help?

Landfills ARE getting bigger. We create so much waste that it is inevitable for our landfills to expand. The thinking that it won't, will ruin this planet for future generations. We are rapidly using up fossil fuels.
You cannot convince me that this planet contains an infinite amount of fossil fuel for us to use. Can you?
Furthermore, recycling paper enables trees that we have replanted to live longer, providing this planet with organisms that have existed millenia before us. Re-planting trees is a great step but to think that it replaces the damage of the de-forrestation we have done in the past is idiotic. The reason recycling doesn't create more of an impact is the lack of people doing it. I try to respect this planet for it's ability to give and sustain life to it's inhabitants. I only wish others would respect it as well.
The number of people on this planet is increasing. The amount of waste we generate is increasing. It is the law of numbers. This isn't about "tree-hugging" but if you don't understand that these things ARE alive and our actions today affect the future then perhaps there is no hope for our poor planet.



On the program they showed how a 35x35 mile landfill would be enough to fill our garbage for the next THOUSAND years. So really I'm not worried about that. And the chemicals that they give off is used to heat and light entire towns. Plus, the landfills are first lined with 3 thick layers of clay to prevent the garbage from seeping deeper into the ground. And, the land that is filled in with garbage is used and made back into nature that looks beautiful and just as good as before. Or it is used for something different, my school was built on a landfill.

Recycling paper does nothing for the earth, the trees that are cut down for paper aren't from our forests, they are grown in tree farms specifically for the making of paper. So you aren't saving any trees. In fact, the more paper you use and throw out creates a higher demand for paper, causing more trees to be planted. And even if you do recycle the paper, it takes for ever to sort through all the recycables that they are usually just tossed into landfills and only a very small fraction is used to be recycled.

I am against deforestation for use of expansion of our civilization, but the cutting down of our forests to make paper just isn't true. And we are not in a shortage of landfills. The man they showed on the tv show said back in the 80's that "it's possible that we could run out" so people paniced and twisted his words and now are saying that we are running out of landfill space. Watch the show, it will tell you everything you need to know.
Cruise
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Ok I got angry trying to rite this so I erased and started over LOL!

Ok when we use things faster than they are made we need to put it back! Also we also should clean up our mess we make for getting that stuff and making it into things and burning it as fuel!

And be carful who you listen to about things like this! Are they politicians? Are they Presidents of a companies trying to make money from it? Are they scientists that are paid by the politicians or preseidents of the company?

I think there are lots of people who just believe people because they have a friendly smile. MAGICIANS should know better then to take what you see at face value.
ask harry why he dont want people to know he makes $200 a month for all these ads! thats like $4000 a month! oh but SHHH! harry isnt a real person!
Close.Up.Dave
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Oh and by the way, running out of natural resources like oil has nothing to do with recycling. It's true, we may one day run out of those types of fuels, but that has nothing to do with recycling and trees not being endangered (though our rain forests are). So don't bring it up in order to argue against recycling being pointless.
Cruise
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Ok trees are infinite? If we stop planting them then we don't need to worry?

Fossle fuels matter about recycling because if you use them up and have to recycle to get more, you never get the same amount it took to make them in the first place, so it doesn't even replenish what got used. Since we burn for cars but we also use plastics, it is stupid not to recycle as much as we can. I mean we burn it! How much faster do you want to use it up before you realize you gotta get more from somewhere? The thing that doesn't matter is that it is worse for the environment. The right way of thinking would be that we need to find some new energy source. But that would not be profitable so we don't explore any of the options seriously. Lots of ridiculous ideas get thrown in to make it look like it makes sense not to recycle.
ask harry why he dont want people to know he makes $200 a month for all these ads! thats like $4000 a month! oh but SHHH! harry isnt a real person!
Close.Up.Dave
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Do you drive a gas powered car cruise?
Cruise
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Yes it burns gasoline! And it uses Oil too

Hey its a V8 so its a *** hog too!
ask harry why he dont want people to know he makes $200 a month for all these ads! thats like $4000 a month! oh but SHHH! harry isnt a real person!
Close.Up.Dave
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So you're polluting then. Why are you for recycling if you are wasting fuel too?
Mary B.
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Quote:
Recycling paper does nothing for the earth, the trees that are cut down for paper aren't from our forests, they are grown in tree farms specifically for the making of paper.


I beg to differ. The Boise Cascade company uses trees growing in public forest land, not from tree farms. Perhaps some paper companies get their pulp exclusively from tree farms, but not this one.

http://boise.bc.com/environment/index.html
Jonathan Townsend
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Re: "Recycling paper does nothing for the earth"

Newsprint can be recycled by mulching, bleaching and remaking the paper. When vegetable dyes are used, the ink can be recycled too. This can be a good thing.

Computers were supposed to help the paper issue through paperwork reduction via online forms. A side effect has been the widespread use of home printers and toner, which use paper and toner... which is toxic. Almost worked.
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Cruise
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Quote:
On 2004-05-08 15:49, David Ranalli wrote:
So you're polluting then. Why are you for recycling if you are wasting fuel too?



The answer is because I don't have a bus system and I can't bike to work. Ok? I don't have money to buy a slick fuel efficient car. It doesn't mean I can't think the system doesn't work! I think we should change but I don't have the money to buy a luxury vehicle. If clean fuel cars become the normal car then I will be happy.
ask harry why he dont want people to know he makes $200 a month for all these ads! thats like $4000 a month! oh but SHHH! harry isnt a real person!
Close.Up.Dave
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I just don't think that someone should go around saying one thing, then doing another. I didn't mean the whole car thing literally, Frankly I could care less what kind of car you drive. But before you talk about saving gas and oil, actually do it.

I have no idea what your income is but if you really want to bring that up then go ahead. That had nothing to do with my point. If you don't want to burn fuel, walk.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Wethington
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David the issues are related. Recycling AND the depletion of fossil fuels are related. How many times throughout history have big corporations told us that what they are doing isn't affecting nature. Recently in an effort to open up nationally protected lands for mining, a photo of a Grizzly walking next to the Alaskan Pipeline was ehibited. The caption the lobbyist had for the picture was "Look how much he enjoys walking next to the pipeline."!
The bottom line is money. If companies have to recycle it costs them more money so they come up with studies that "show" it has little or no effect. Hmm...I've heard this before...where was it...oh yeh "Nicotine isn't addictive and smoking MAY be bad for my health.

The people who fund these studies are the corporations generally speaking. Corporate dollars spent usually mean a favorable conclusion for the corporations. We are never given the whole story it isn't until decades later that we find out the result of our gluttony.
I'm not saying that things are so bad they are irreversible but they may be. Companies that recycle are given benefits from the government. Which interestingly enough brings us back to money.
Don't believe everything you read, hear OR watch on T.V. Go in search of the truth for yourself.
bigchuck
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We need to understand that before the last couple centuries no one really USED fossil fuels the way we do now and we DO go through them at an incredible rate -- looking into alternative power sources is not only the smart thing to do -- one day it WILL be the only option. And basing your beliefs' system on a 'cool thing' that Penn and Teller seems to be a little silly and naive.

That would be like basing an opinion on gun control solely on the information found in Michael Moore's 'Bowling For Columbine'.
"The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact
mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. - Frank Zappa"
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