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Close.Up.Dave
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I know that we are running out of oil and I think that we should find a better use for recycling. My dad told me about some guy who put a bunch of old fruit (or something) into this one machine that extracted all of the citric acid (or something) and a motorcycle was able to run on it. I would love it if the world was like that. But, it's not. The majority of what we "recycle" gets thrown into the dumps along with the non-recycled materials anyway. Plus it takes more fuel to burn in order to recycle materials anyway. So the people who are trying to help the earth would be hurting it while looking like they are trying to help.
Cheshire Cat
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I just object to the amounts of packaging processed foods, and most consumer goods are sold in. Ok, we need secure packaging that is hygienic and durable, but how come every time I buy something I always end up with a trailer full of garbage/rubbish to have to dispose of?
Close.Up.Dave
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I agree aceparties. My mom had the good idea of instead of buying a new shampoo bottle (or whatever), at the store they have huge tanks that you can refill and pay at instead of making and throwing out all of those bottles. Of course this could result in job losses but who knows, it could create some jobs.
jonesc2ii
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'On the program they showed how a 35x35 mile landfill would be enough to fill our garbage for the next THOUSAND years. So really I'm not worried about that.'

a) Is a thousand years a long time?
b) 35 * 35 miles gives an area of 1000 square miles. Are you seriously suggesting that the planet's waste totals 1 square mile a year?
c) you know of any town near you that would be happy to have a land fill site that size?

'And the chemicals that they give off is used to heat and light entire towns.'

Is it? Do they install hoods over landfill sites to collect the gases as things decompose?

'Plus, the landfills are first lined with 3 thick layers of clay to prevent the garbage from seeping deeper into the ground. And, the land that is filled in with garbage is used and made back into nature that looks beautiful and just as good as before. Or it is used for something different, my school was built on a landfill.'

I honestly don't know about this, it may well be true.

'Recycling paper does nothing for the earth, the trees that are cut down for paper aren't from our forests, they are grown in tree farms specifically for the making of paper. So you aren't saving any trees. In fact, the more paper you use and throw out creates a higher demand for paper, causing more trees to be planted.'

Yes, I'm sure that's right. The more paper we dispose of, the more trees there are. NOT!

'And even if you do recycle the paper, it takes for ever to sort through all the recycables that they are usually just tossed into landfills and only a very small fraction is used to be recycled.'

Can't speak for the rest of the world but over here we use clever devices like magnets to help sort the recycling. We have separate boxes for paper, tins, and glass (often even different coloured glasses have their own boxes).

'I am against deforestation for use of expansion of our civilization, but the cutting down of our forests to make paper just isn't true.'

Well, a tree takes a while to grow, you know? If the amount of paper we are using is increasing, the number of trees we need increases. Are these paper tree farms increasing in size at a fast enough rate?

'And we are not in a shortage of landfills. The man they showed on the tv show said back in the 80's that "it's possible that we could run out" so people paniced and twisted his words and now are saying that we are running out of landfill space. Watch the show, it will tell you everything you need to know.'

Well, we don't have infinite amounts of land so, ultimately if we keep filling it in with garbage, it will get used up. Some people can't grasp the concept of something being finite. Like oil and gas reserves. Yes, there might be enough to last a few more generations and yes, you might have a monopoly on it if you keep stealing it from the countries that own it. But one day, there just won't be any more!
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whitelephant
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Ok dave- take a deep breath.
We will run out of fossil fuels if we continue to use them at the rate we are. As a self prclaimed "tree-hugger" I would love to build a house that was self-sustaining. Passive climate control-Solar/wind generated electricity. Composting of my non-meat food wastes. Collecting my rain water. I don't. I do reuse my grocery store bags- I do recycle my bottles and cans (not paper or foam)
Fossil fuels are "NON-renewable." don't get mad when people say what they believe you are thinking when you say...
Quote:
On 2004-05-08 13:54, David Ranalli wrote:
It's true, we may one day run out of those types of fuels. But that has nothing to do with...

And I ride my bike to work.
So let's look forward and see how we as magicians-inventors and performers can shape a better world.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2004-05-09 14:13, aceparties wrote:
I just object to the amounts of packaging processed foods, and most consumer goods are sold in. Ok, we need secure packaging that is hygienic and durable, but how come every time I buy something I always end up with a trailer full of garbage/rubbish to have to dispose of?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


AMEN
drink water...
Close.Up.Dave
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Quote:
On 2004-05-09 14:40, jonesc2ii wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that the planet's waste totals 1 square mile a year?


THEY (not I) said America's waste, obviously not the world's.

I don't know why everyone is making it seem that I made the tv show and got all of the evidence that was presented. Watch the tv show, after all I wasn't the one who made it so I obviously don't have all of the evidence right in front of me. All I asked was what was everyone's thoughts on it, not why am I wrong.
Jason Wethington
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I am so glad that there are more people like me here that do care.

About 4 years ago my girlfriend did a study (she is an animal trainer in a show at Disney's Animal Kingdom) on the impact conservation themed shows have on an audience. The results were that after viewing a their show just once, 10% of people polled (which was aproximately 25% of the shows audience~750-1000 per show~6 shows a day~365 days/year) were more likely to begin recycling habits. Taking the lower figure of people per year, about 1.6 million people see her show in a year, that's only 160,000 people beginning to THINK about recycling.
I guess it's a start.
jonesc2ii
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Quote:
On 2004-05-09 15:14, David Ranalli wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-05-09 14:40, jonesc2ii wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that the planet's waste totals 1 square mile a year?


THEY (not I) said America's waste, obviously not the world's.

I don't know why everyone is making it seem that I made the tv show and got all of the evidence that was presented. Watch the tv show, after all I wasn't the one who made it so I obviously don't have all of the evidence right in front of me. All I asked was what was everyone's thoughts on it, not why am I wrong.


Even so, I'm willing to eat America's waste if it's anything like one square mile a year. I can't even begin to guess at a figure, but I suspect it's nearer the 35 * 35 miles PER YEAR!

David, this isn't a personal attack, but you started the thread. Look, it's Penn and Teller! My guess is they are just trying to get people talking about it and thinking about it, which they have achieved right here, thanks to you. So, let's keep talking about it, thinking about it, and making the world just a little bit better. Smile
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kihei kid
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I cannot comment on whether recycling is pointless or not, quite frankly it just does not interest me. However I did drive a roll off truck for 5 years of my life, those of you not familiar with this term it is one of those trucks that drops off and picks up those gigantic dumpsters you see occasionally in front of peoples houses.

And I can tell you from 5 years worth of driving to the landfills that you would not believe just how much stuff that is earmarked for recycling actually ends up in the landfills.

Here is a perfect example; I use to load a trash compactor from a major airport in my area on Saturday mornings they have two of them that get dumped every day with the exception of the only day I did this run, which was on Saturday.

OBTW if you don’t know what a trash compactor is drive behind your local grocery store and you will see this big boxed looking thing, those are also loaded up and dumped by roll off trucks.

The packers I use to empty were 40 yard packers which obviously means there is 40 yards of trash packed into them, when I opened the door at the landfill it sounded like an aluminum factory because there was so many aluminum cans in it. Why?

Because of the way the airport is run. While people are waiting around what do you think that they do with their aluminum cans? Dump them in the trash of course!

My guess is these cans also come off of jets but the point is the airport is set up in such a way that nothing is being recycled, now, times this by how many American airports?

My fellow magicians this is the tip of the iceberg if you don’t believe me go to your local dump and watch the commercial garbage trucks dump their loads out.

I still don’t understand why we don’t recycle more, taking something and burying into the ground and wiping our hands clean of it has always bothered me.

On another note one of my buddy’s is a teacher for ford motor company he help me build a beautiful 68 mustang that burns lots of fossil fuels, if you ever need a cool car this is the guy to see.

According to him he “feels” that hydrogen energy will be the route automobiles will take in the not to distant future.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.

You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed.

Until we meet again “my old friend”.
Review King
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What about the Grand Canyon for a land fll? That would last for quite awhile and later they could build a mall.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Jonathan Townsend
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Till the costs become prohibitive, people are loathe to examine their behavior and habits.

Much of social ideology and fashion is recycled.

The labor and materials costs involved in sorting and recycling materials are quite large. This comes from having so small amounts of clever non-reusable materials in our environment. A non-trivial problem.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Ron Giesecke
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I think the problem with any common-sense strategy is that they are co-opted by the 'tree-hugger" and not everyday people--it's fuled by the extreme "Day after Tomorrow" hyperbole, specious claims about global warming that do not in any way investigate whether a planet that is "billions and billions" in the birthday depatment makes its own independent adjustments on a larger scale, and arrogant, condescending commercials that make the claim that we "cut down an acre of rainforest every second."

This last one infuriates me, because this is accepted and common doctrine in our schools.(Do the math. This is what they tell your kids. Just do the math before you take me on. Your calculator will go on tilt before you can even compute a "years worth of plundering."(note to those of you who may be invigorated by these claims, but have an aversion to things with un malleble character, like math:

1 second x 60= 60 acres a minute
60 minutes x 60 = 3,600 acres an hour
3600 x 24 = 86,400 acres a day
86,400 x 365 = 31,536,000 acres a year

And on and on . . .I even heard this garbage on PBS yesterday--with no qualification, no attempt to even water down the manuer--just straight, earnest, wide-eyed, peace-loving, SUV hating, crap.

This--is why nobody cares. And since this is obvious pandering and environmental demegoguery, everything underneath it(that may have some truth in it) gets dismissed out of hand.

It happened to my kids. They came home acting like they were going to be overshadowed by some saw-shaped melanoma in the next few years. They have since learned otherwise. Meanwhile the school flounders at meeting even the low-bar California standard for reading. My kids no longer attend. They read. I've simply taught them that "don't litter" does not mean that you have to join a secular religion of tree-sitters.

And my point is: The extremists always cause an eventual backlash of either active rebellion, or cynicism. The latter is, in my opinion what is happening now.

And if you don't think that an aparrent winner, can become the world's biggest laughing stock, because it was invested with false integrity, the illusion of actual talent, and the false imputation of caliber and momentum:

I give you Al Franken's "Air America."

Can anyone say "Spruce Goose with a Michael Moore moon rising?"

Now, I'm off to carry out my recycling--since I actually believe in it.
kihei kid
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Ron, it's funny you mention the deal about the rainforest. I went to a show at a place called marine world africa U.S.A. 19 years ago and at one of the shows they said the exact same thing!

This is the first time I had ever heard such a thing and the second they said it my girlfriend and I looked at each other in total disbelief.

We did exactly what you did when we got home we busted out a calculator and starting laughing are ***** off!

There's and old saying; don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.

You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed.

Until we meet again “my old friend”.
jonesc2ii
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Yes, there is some truth in what Ron says. 'Tree huggers' aren't always the best advert for a cause and misinformation is bound to turn people off.

But, as I think Ron also implied, neither of these things makes the truth any less important.

I don't know the truth. I don't know how many acres of trees are felled each year, nor how many trees are planted.

I don't know how much oil we use nor how much land we poison.

I don't know which scientists do believe when their 'evidence' is contradictory either.

But I do know that it takes very little effort to put my empty beer cans in a green box instead of a black bag.
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A C Spectre
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Quote:
On 2004-05-10 10:52, Ron Giesecke wrote ... arrogant, condescending commercials that make the claim that we "cut down an acre of rainforest every second."

This last one infuriates me, because this is accepted and common doctrine in our schools.(Do the math. This is what they tell your kids. Just do the math before you take me on. Your calculator will go on tilt before you can even compute a "years worth of plundering."(note to those of you who may be invigorated by these claims, but have an aversion to things with un malleble character, like math:

1 second x 60= 60 acres a minute
60 minutes x 60 = 3,600 acres an hour
3600 x 24 = 86,400 acres a day
86,400 x 365 = 31,536,000 acres a year



Hear, Hear
I got in this very debate about a month ago someone posing as my daughters 8th grade Social Studies teacher. My daughter actually had a homework assignment to make a poster depicting the evil pillaging of 1 acre of rainforest every second. I went to the school and challenged this "college educated" person to run the numbers. When she wouldn't, I presented them to her and told her that if these numbers were anything close to reality all of the land categorized as rain forest on the entire planet would have been gone years ago.

I was accused of being, in laymens terms, an insensitive lout and she refused to change the assignment. I told her that my daughter would not be completing the assignment as assigned but would in fact make a poster that supported preserving the rainforest but would not contain blatantly false numbers. We will see how this affects her grade. Those of you out there that are parents of school age kids should really take an interest in what these other adult "role models" are trying to indoctrinate your children with.
Jason Wethington
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The interesting thing to me is with all the misinformation floating about, have any of you that have "crunched the numbers" done any research as to what the truth is?

What are the facts concerning de-forestation? What are the "real" numbers? I had to do a very in depth search online to find some answers. Here is what I found:

Rainforests cover approximately 2% of the Earth's total surface or 6% of its land area.
In Brazil between August 2002 and August 2003 approximately 23,750 square kilometers of rainforest was cleared. That figure is up from the 23,266 sq. km. from the previous year. About 650,000 square kilometers of Amazonia has already been cleared - equivalent to about 16 percent of its total area.
A quarter of the deforested area has since been abandoned or is underused. "This wastefulness becomes more serious when it is considered that new areas continue to be deforested for the expansion of farming activities, without the adequate use of a great part of the opened areas already"- Environment Minister Marina Silva

Current estimates of deforestation globally figure that if the rates of loss do not slow down most of the equatorial rainforests will be destroyed by the middle to late part of this century.

The figures found on the internet vary greatly. The only truth is that globally we are losing rainforests at an alarming rate and something must be done.


I do applaud you for taking an active role in your daughters’ education. I don't want you to think that I am suggesting allowing the educator to continue teaching something that is obviously false. I just want you to be aware that many of the web sites I visited seem to take the same data specifically estimates on loss of rainforests globally collected between 1979-1995, which was about 1.5 hectares (2.471 acres or about 107,637 square feet) per minute and re-post it.
These sites are slanted with an educational angle making them attractive to educational professionals. We tend to believe something when "experts" are involved as many of these sites claim. I am in no way defending her but understanding there is a lot of bad info out there might help you to help her.
All the best,
Jason
Ron Giesecke
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Quote:

Current estimates of deforestation globally figure that if the rates of loss do not slow down most of the equatorial rainforests will be destroyed by the middle to late part of this century.



Jason,

I appreciate the detail. My own point here was that the proponents of this misinformation are routinely applauded for their earnestness(and "scientific" acumen). The problem I have with "current estimates" is that they are routinely revised to glove-fit an alarmists hand, right before they recieve a Nobel prize.

Paul Erlich ("The Population Bomb") should be considered a clown and a farce. His predicitons of world starvation by 1978 have now seen 26 years of ignominy. Yet, because he "cares," he to this day recieves accolades and awards for his paltry, alarmist claptrap. George W. Bush could only pray for that kind of relativist glad-handling over the WMD issue from the same people.

Now, as to environmental awareness, I teach my children to care about these things, but I steadfastly refuse to make it something that burdens them with the entire weight of the world on their shoulders--something that is deliberately attempted in the schools. And no child is going to hear "an acre a second" and ever make some ethereal leap to some obscure 1970's data and say "oh I see they mean within a specific time period, during hightened harvesting. . .bla bla bla" The people saying this crap are the ones who know that the intial, asinine claim is what sticks in the mind.

During the winter power outages here, I also used my copy of The Population Bomb to start my woodstove. I at least harvested some trapped energy from what is otherwise paper going to waste. Smile

Oh, and Jason, I just read my own post, and it sounds harsh. I mean all of this with great humor and respect for your post. I appreciate what you've said.


Regards,

Ron
Jason Wethington
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I didn't take it as harsh. I appreciate your insights.
I believe children should be aware that they hold the key for the future. If the burden doesn't fall with our generation and not with our children's generation who does the burden the burden fall on? Making them aware that something terrible is happening isn't bad. Pretending it doesn't exist is.
Yes there are many quacks out there spouting false information. There are also many who are genuinely concerned and are doing the best they can to raise awareness. Raising an alarm to a problem may help slow the rate or stop it all together.


Are you kidding me about "if rainforests were in America" ( rainforests are in South America)? I am assuming you mean the U.S.A. We do have National Forests that a certain President has been trying to destroy for oil. Read my post about the Grizzly Bear. I really think you are kidding yourself when you say that our Government is by the people of the people and for the people. The last Presidential election proved that the popular vote in this country is rendered useless by the Electoral College (an antiquated system IMO). The people spoke and our elected officer is not in office. The career politicians have little knowledge of life out in the real world (I am speaking only of the Federal Government). I think that if our government wants something bad enough they will get it, regardless of what effect that action might have on the future.
Jason
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I agree wholeheartedly with you aceparties. The packaging business winds me up something chronic!

One of the local superstores sells tomatoes (no surprise). Some of them come on a plastic tray in a sealed plastic bag. Why? All I want is the tomatoes. I hate it when I go to the supermarket and put my veg all into one bag, only to take it to the till and have them weigh the things and try to put them in individual bags. Why? They're all going into the same place in my fridge. This just bugs me.

I'm trying to train myself to be more sensible when it comes to packaging and bags. If something is over-packaged I refuse to buy it. If I go shopping (for clothes etc.) and I don't take a bag with me, I use the bag from the first shop for all the other shops. I remember the days when I used to bring home 5 or more bags when 1 would have sufficed. Just extrapolating this to the number of people I see shopping during the day gives me shivers, let alone the rest of the country and beyond across the space of a year!

None of us will be perfect in what we do but I hope I'm starting at a good place.

Things that bug me about myself with respect to energy efficiency and recycling:

1. I forget to turn lights off.
2. I drive to work and back by myself. I have car-pooled but it doesn't work all the time as the people I pooled with work normal hours (and I don't as a rule). I'd like to wangle it so I can car pool again.
3. I forget to reuse bags.
4. I occasionaly forget to turn my computer off in the evening (I always do it before going to bed).

Areas where I'm improving:

1. I built a recycling system (sounds fancy - it's not) so I can sort and organise all the rubbish saving time for the guys who sort it in their lorries.
2. I've made a big compost heap which I use when growing veg (less trips to the supermarket!).
3. I'm getting into the habit of hibernating my PC when I know I'm going to be away from it for a while (and turn off the monitor properly).

Even if recycling isn't as efficient as we'd like, at least I'm laying the groundwork so that when it is, I'm already prepared.
El_Lamo
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I do go over and mow my neighbor's lawn. I have the mower out and it is easy to do. It makes his day easier and I know that he will reciprocate in his own way and he does.

It is beneficial for us to care about more than ourselves. I like to think that it is part of our evolution.

Last week, I went with my daughter's class to the Ontario Science Centre. One of the exhibits was a game.

Each player had a row of beads. Each turn, you could choose to compete or to co-operate. If both one player chose to compete, and the other to co-operate, then the result was that the competer gained 3 points and the co-operator lost 3 points.
If both chose to co-operate, each gained 2 points. If both chose to compete, each lost one point.

It was a very interesting exercise. Regardless of my views, I was still dependent on the other participant's actions and choices. It seems, we still have a lot to learn about interdependence.

We need to understand the effects of our actions and value each other's contributions.

Now, I need to go cut some lawns. (With my gas mower - so much for sounding virtuous.)

Cheers - El Lamo
Life is a system of circumstance presented coincidently in an illusory way.
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