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Taylor Haws
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Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiPFewx9iY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBM8Y_ENziA


what do you think about Daniel Madison's new "masterclasses"?
I've already read what you guys think of mechanic and ExM, But I want to know if you think his bottom deal has gotten any better, or if its just the same old garbage.
Peterson
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He is also going to publish his version of Erdnase book where every figure drawing has his tattoos displayed - https://imgur.com/a/W0fvkci
So here is that.
TH10111
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I'm pretty sure he has taught both of those before in other projects...

In my opinion, if you took away the swinging action, I don't think he's got a bad bottom deal technique...
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Sep 9, 2018, TH10111 wrote:

...In my opinion, if you took away the swinging action, I don't think he's got a bad bottom deal technique...


I think without the swinging action, his bottom deal might look pretty obvious.

He uses the Erdnase bottom deal which is relegated at this point in time strictly to demo performances. (In fact, I believe Forte still demonstrates the Erdnase bottom deal, using a strike take rather that a left ring finger bottom card push-off.) Perhaps this Erdnase grip gives more cover for demos, especially if the demonstrators has large hands, but would get you killed or at least get you a lot of heat in many real games.

He purports to tell you everything you need to know about the bottom deal in a three-hour lecture. Three hours??? Obviously, no exaggeration or hype here.

To his credit he doesn't claim, at least in this video, that this is the "real work" for use in a game. He simply states it is for pseudo expose gambling demos.

I'm sure Madison has a good following among newbies and those who are not very knowledgeable about gambling ploys...and for those who want to be just like Madison. So, to his credit this contrived persona and hype works for him and he evidently gives value to his followers. For them, they happily get what they are paying for.

For the more sophisticated it is the same old nonsense as far as deceptive gambling ploys go.

...and the world keep spinning...
TH10111
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Well it's certainly not the worst bottom deal I've seen sold as a tutorial.

But I don't disagree that it's the same old bottom deal at the end of the day, and you're probably also right about the grip getting heat in most games, but he is only really marketing this to magicians and demonstrators...

Personally I alway thought his persona was very entertaining, but people seem to take him too seriously, even though he released a blank deck, he had a marketing campaign based solely around him claiming to be better than Erdnase, and now he has released a version of EATCT where all of the illustrations use his own hands!

The only thing I do feel is unfortunate, is the less experienced magicians that are going to end up paying for this stuff believing it's the 'real work'.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Sep 9, 2018, TH10111 wrote:

Well it's certainly not the worst bottom deal I've seen sold as a tutorial.


Actually the Erdnase bottom deal can be done very nicely in the right hands. It is just that it is too dated and the grip is too "funny-looking" except perhaps for some demonstrators.

Quote:
Personally I always thought his persona was very entertaining


How does that old song, "Different Strokes for Different Folks" go?

Personally, when he gets heavily involved in the use of filthy language, he is off the charts for me. I also find his tattoos disgusting and sickening to look at. However, in a way he does put on an entertaining show when he doesn't use outrageous filth talk and I believe he offers value to the people who look to emulate him and find his approach exciting, funny, daring, or whatever...

Quote:
The only thing I do feel is unfortunate, is the less experienced magicians that are going to end up paying for this stuff believing it's the 'real work'.


In his favor he does say on the video that the bottom deal approach he teaches is for pseudo gambling expose purposes. I thick that is fair representation and perhaps more honest than some demo guys who claim or imply their demos are "the real work," used by them "under fire." That is course presumes that have any idea of what the current "real work" actually might be.

But quite frankly it really doesn't matter what is said by Madison or others in the demo field. After all, in way it is all just "show business," in the final analysis.
Thomas Gilroy
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I haven't seen either of these new "masterclass" videos that Daniel Madison has released.

I have seen some of his Mechanic series. Being honest, I didn't buy it. Somebody illegally uploaded it to a video streaming site and it was suggested to me based on my watch history, so I watched some of it before it was taken down. If anybody is thinking of giving me a hard time for this, save your energy.

I wasn't impressed with it generally. Maybe the methods he demonstrates are good enough for magic performance, gambling routines, etc, but I can't imagine any of it being applicable even in a small-stakes casual game. I remember feeling it was quite odd that a video series that supposedly concerned with teaching real cheating moves contained so many bizarre magic sleights, like a false in the hands riffle shuffle (I think it was called the "vice"). Some magic moves were clearly just inferior variations of established moves, like the diagonal palm shift.

I also thought he tended to ramble in his presentation and I didn't believe his story. Maybe as a teenager he tried to cheat some other teenagers in a game, got caught and took a beating for it. That might have been believable to me (you'd certainly get caught trying anything he showed), but the version he tells in that video wasn't. I've also read online that the story seems to change every time he tells it.

On his bottom deal specifically, I thought it was pretty poor. His deal is basically a push-off bottom from modified Erdnase grip (the Gene Maze grip). He mentions the problem of the knuckle flash. His solution is to use a scissoring motion of the fingers (like Spock's "Live Long and Prosper" gesture), which creates a very noticeable finger flash instead. He also used an exaggerated swinging action that neck-ties the deck, which was really ludicrous. During his bottom deal, he raised the deck so severely that he flashed the bottom card allowing it to be easily identified. Even if player didn't notice the unusual grip, or the flash from the pincer movement, I can't possibly imagine an observer wouldn't notice the bottom card changing as he dealt.

To Daniel's credit, he did spend some time talking about the importance of understanding fair dealing. I disagree very strongly with what he believes to be a natural looking fair deal, or what is an acceptable fair deal in a game.

Incidentally, the best resources I've come across for learning to deal fairly are the following YouTube channels.

TruePokerDealer:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7P43cTw49KRIitqlIzzoGg

Jeremey Neuman:
https://www.youtube.com/user/temujin555

I read a detailed review of his Erdnase X Madison series. The review stated that the video series was bloated and rambling. Seemingly, the series was a redux of his Mechanic series, with most of the same moves being taught with the same handlings, but with more waffling and vulgarity. Apparantly, Daniel teaches the same inferior handlings of the moves in Erdnase as before, like the diagonal palm shift.

I don't take Erdnase as gospel, but some of the methods of palming are excellent. Daniel doesn't teach these methods of palming at all, teaching some inferior methods instead, and supposedly performs them poorly, saying that he doesn't like the classic palm, and that's it's not worth doing. That reminds me of a musician I used to practice with who would refuse to learn difficult passages in songs and would just play something else when the time came, insisting that his way was better.

The review also mentioned that he advocates handling cards amateurishly, which he calls being a "dirty ***," but that he unconsciously performs fancy flourishes and cardistry moves while he rambles.

For a series that was advertised and sold as a guide to Erdnase, with Daniel Madison himself claiming that he had "studied" and "mastered" The Expert At The Card Table, and with Madison himself claiming that he is "better than Erdnase," the review leads me to think that the series was advertised in a misleading way, and that anybody who felt as the reviewer did deserved a full refund. I also didn't appreciate the arrogance and vulgarity of the marketing.

I remember him acting tough and imitating Conor McGregor in a video from about that time also, but then complaining about anonymous online "death threats." I'm not a fan of McGregor's persona either, but at least he backs up what he says, going as far as knocking out Dublin gangsters when threatened in pubs and not backing down or apologizing after. I can't stand empty posturing.

I've also read recently that Daniel has left Ellusionist, and is selling his videos and branded cards himself. Customers don't seem to be satisfied, with orders that are over six months old not yet shipped and emails of complaint ignored. I would not deal with his website until those issues are addressed, even if I were interested in his products. His track record leaves me unconvinced that these would be quality instructional videos. In fairness to him, there is less of the exaggerated, swinging movement to his deals in the trailer video, so maybe he's taking criticism and improving.
Cagliostro
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@Thomas Gilroy: Nice insight into Dan Madison and his offers. It should be enlightening to those who may be tempted to buy his products or succumb to his sales pitch.
Taylor Haws
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Quote:
On Sep 10, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:


I remember feeling it was quite odd that a video series that supposedly concerned with teaching real cheating moves contained so many bizarre magic sleights, like a false in the hands riffle shuffle (I think it was called the "vice").


I think you are referring to this
https://magicstream.com/programs/vice-sh......lay=true

as a magician, I must say that I have rarely seen a worse false shuffle. it looks more unnatural than anything I have ever seen done with a deck of playing cards.
Thomas Gilroy
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Hi Taylor, yes that's the shuffle I was referring to. I think it's atrocious. It's weird and unnatural looking, and not particularly deceptive. Aesthetically, I think it's ugly and overly fancy at the same time. I don't even like it as a flourish. It certainly doesn't belong in any video that supposedly teaches "real" cheating moves.

I'm not a performing magician or demonstrator, nor have I ever cheated in a game. I'm an enthusiast or hobbyist. I learned to handle cards like a professional dealer because other players in games I was playing complained about my incompetent handling on my deals. I started practicing magic and gambling sleights with cards only because I found practicing with cards to be enjoyable and I wanted more to practice. I developed an interest in close-up card magic and game protection as a result of this.
buntymc
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I've just been reading the Secret History of Magic by Jim Steinmeyer and Peter Lamont and there's a passage in there about how, for much of the 20th century, magicians have been embarrassed by their trade because it's so profoundly uncool due to it's association with an earlier version. So somebody like Blaine or Derren Brown comes along, and people want a part of that, on the one hand, while desperately wanting to disassociate themselves with the earlier Paul Daniels/Doug Henning type of presentation.

And as I'm reading this, I couldn't help but think of poor Daniel "I'm not a magician" Madison, who clearly spent his youth in exactly the same way as all of the other Billy-no-mates magic nerds, but today makes a living selling second rate or recycled content that only actually flies because gullible callow youth loves this idea that they aren't really learning 'magic', but they're getting 'the real work' from a gambling cheat.
Peterson
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Nicely said buntymc. Cannot agree more. There is a trend, as you said, to put a "cool gangster style know it all" blanket on people pleasing hobby (nothing wrong with "performance arts"). However, we cannot dismiss its effectiveness. Real people will see no difference and, as 100 people said here already, its still a performance and should be judged as such. WHICH gives a legitimate excuse to the "know it all/I'm better than you" type of people. It is a 0 loss game for them.
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I can't help but feel he might need a shower every time I see something of his.
My Mentalism Podcast:
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rjs
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The Vice shuffle looks cool to me.
Unusual, but looks convincing to normal people.
AMcD
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Stop thinking that normal/real people are stupid and idiots. Thanks.
Cagliostro
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FLASH...There is a rumor that Dan Madison knew Erdnase in another life and that he plans to use that "fact" in upcoming advertising copy.

I can't seem to get any verification on this. However if true this is a real game-changer. It would substantiate everything Madison says about Erdnase and refute his critics.

Remember, you heard it first on The Gambling Spot.
Taylor Haws
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Quote:
On Sep 27, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
FLASH...There is a rumor that Dan Madison knew Erdnase in another life and that he plans to use that "fact" in upcoming advertising copy.

I can't seem to get any verification on this. However if true this is a real game-changer. It would substantiate everything Madison says about Erdnase and refute his critics.

Remember, you heard it first on The Gambling Spot.


What? I thought that Daniel Madison was Erdnase in another life!
Taylor Haws
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Apparently, he just put out a gamblers cop masterclass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cyFRw6LLQs
ssibal
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Daniel Madison is the most tattooed magician ever!
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:

Apparently, he just put out a gamblers cop masterclass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cyFRw6LLQs


Actually the trick shown is quite clever and nicely performed. Although the Gambler's Cop comes from the gaming tables, this is a good application of the move as a straight magic trick.

Madison has evidently given quite a bit of thought into employing this move for card trick purposes and he appears to be a skillful performer, at least as far as it pertains to doing magic tricks or "gambling themed" card work for entertainment purposes.

He markets himself as an Erdnase and gambling card man expert so I think this video, and his work in general is appropriate on this forum.

Although some of his work may make the purist demonstrator/hobbyist cringe...hey guys...it's show biz and this is The Magic Café.

PS He also makes the new "homeless guy" look fashionable, at least for some.
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