The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Fast Jack's Open Palm (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3 [Next]
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Been playing with the 'open palm' dice switch that Fast Jack Farrell teaches in his Penguin lecture. I thought the dice looked really small in his hands and then realized that he's a very tall dude and has large, if lanky hands.

Is this switch something that is dependent on having larger hands? I cannot seem to get the dice to lock in the same place as he does for the life of me. Maybe I just need more practice. I have average sized hands.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
I think I've answered my own question, reading his book I see he says that big hands are required.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Thomas Gilroy
View Profile
New user
Ireland
70 Posts

Profile of Thomas Gilroy
I'm not really a dice guy, but I can do the open palm switch. I don't think I have particularly big hands, my fingers are pretty long but slender.

Here's a photo of my hand holding two 3/4" dice in the open palm position, judge for yourself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdbdhcukye53nb......jpg?dl=0

The hardest part of the move for me is correctly concealing the held out dice the the starting position without leaking between the curled fingers.
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2478 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

Is this switch something that is dependent on having larger hands?


I think it depends on the size of the dice used. I have average size hands and learned the Thumb Switch (Open Palm Switch) together with the Palm Switch when I was 15 years old. Learned it right out of Scarne on Dice using 5/8 inch drugstore dice and had no problem with the move after some practice.

Years later, when I was in my early twenties working in a casino on the Las Vegas Strip, and old mob bust out man privately demonstrated the Thumb and Tip Switch using regulation 3/4 inch casino dice and it looked great. These were the same size dice he used when busting out and as I recall he had average size hands. However, I would think that when using larger dice, the angles become important to prevent leaking.

Funny story. After I learned the move at 15 years of age, I wanted to try it out in a game. I had four 5/8 inch drugstore dice and started a dice game in the school yard for pennies with one pair, secretly keeping the other pair in my pocket. I wasn't looking the cheat anyone, both pairs were legitimate, but I was curious to see if I could do the thumb switch under fire.

When it came my time to shoot the dice, I had no problem thumb palming the pair to be switched, but I was so nervous my hands were sweating profusely. Because of that, and because I had held the palmed dice tightly in my hand for some time, I could not release the second pair on the toss. They were sticking to my hand badly. So I had to rub both hands together to "unstick" the dice while blowing on my hands "for luck." Thereafter, everything went smoothly with the thumb switch and I went in and out several times.

However, that is not the end of the story. When I went to put the palmed dice back in my pocket, they hit the side of my coat and one die fell to the ground. I tried to conceal it but someone noticed it. So I said, "Oh, I brought a second pair in case the first gets a little worn. Here, keep them on the side in case someone wants to change dice for luck."

I know that 99.9% of folks on this BB are demonstrators and have not, and never will, try to move under fire in any serious game. Demos are mostly fun and games, so most have no idea of the crazy things that can and do happen under fire, and usually when least expected. And...you need big cojones. (Don't ever underestimate the "cojones factor.")

"The best-laid plans of mice and men oft go astray..." (Robert Burns, 18th century Scottish poet.)
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm not really a dice guy, but I can do the open palm switch. I don't think I have particularly big hands, my fingers are pretty long but slender.

Here's a photo of my hand holding two 3/4" dice in the open palm position, judge for yourself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdbdhcukye53nb......jpg?dl=0

The hardest part of the move for me is correctly concealing the held out dice the the starting position without leaking between the curled fingers.



Hmm, we appear to have the same size and type of hands. Not sure why I can't get the dice to stay put! I'll keep at it I guess - thanks!




Cagliostro - great story. Sounds like you were thinking on your feet, even then.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Thomas Gilroy
View Profile
New user
Ireland
70 Posts

Profile of Thomas Gilroy
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Hmm, we appear to have the same size and type of hands. Not sure why I can't get the dice to stay put! I'll keep at it I guess - thanks!


Glad the picture helped motivate you. Do you have dry skin? Maybe that might be an issue. I don't have that problem so I can't say for sure.
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Sometimes I have dry skin as I wash my hands a lot, but even using lotion, I'm not getting it to work.

I can't seem to get any purchase on the end towards the index finger without the dice popping out.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2478 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Quote:
On Sep 23, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

I can't seem to get any purchase on the end towards the index finger without the dice popping out.


I think Erdnase says something to the effect that if the resourceful professional can't change the method, he changes the timing. Let's use that thinking to come up with a solution for you.

There are four.

The first in to increase the size of your hands. I have no viable suggestion as to how to do that, however it is something you may want to consider. Maybe they have some type of hand stretchers available on eBay.

The second is to reduce the size of the dice you are using. This would be too rational and logical a solution for me to consider, however, one can go all the way down to Pew Wee dice. I know Pew Wee dice are viable and are used by some black hustlers in their nationhood dice games. The second advantage of Pee Wee dice is in case of a rumble, they are easy to swallow.

The third alternative is to just keep practicing until you master the move, even if it takes the next 50 years or so to master.

The only other option is to forget about dice moves and stick with cards.

There you are, the only four options possible.

As ever, I hope this is helpful.
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Lol, thanks.

I did actually just read an article about a technique where guys are having their legs broken, and some apparatus is inserted that slowly stretches and regrows the bones over several months and they can put on up to 3 inches of height. All you have to do is pay $100,000, go through extended excruciating pain and be wheelchair bound for 3 or 4 months.


As far as the dice go, I'm not sure if it's actually a size thing - as I see Thomas has hands that are very close in size (judging by the dice), so unless he just has looser skin, I might be missing something in terms of what is holding the dice in on the index finger side. I can get it to work with more of a thumb palm (bent thumb) but that's clearly a different technique.

Anyway - I'll keep playing with it.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
french_nobody
View Profile
New user
2 Posts

Profile of french_nobody
Hi

I think you just have to work the lock's part and adapt if needed.

I have 3 ways to put the dice in position ; one easy but not so good, the Jack farell's things, and the same a little bit modified.

I work on it regulary and it's not as perfect as it must be. So keeo training ! and we have approximatively the same hand's size.

Im not really legit so it's just an opinion
Marlin1894
View Profile
Special user
565 Posts

Profile of Marlin1894
I have fairly small, and kind of fat, hands but I've never really had any problem thumb palming 3/4" inch cubes. If I look at it I can see that I use the tip of the thumb to grip and push the cubes backwards into the pad of the hand. It's a very secure grip and quite natural looking. If I were to hold a pair of dice with my palm flat and horizontal to the floor and let someone slap the back of my hand, they would have a pretty hard time knocking them out.

I'm a little baffled as to how Thomas is actually gripping those dice. It looks good, I just don't see how the grip is being applied. Then again, I've never seen a real description of the "correct" way to do it.

I was able to grab a screen shot from and old video that might give you and idea how I do it. Bear in mind, I was not trying to show or explain the grip and the video is 10 years old, so it's not very clear.

Image
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Thanks for the ideas.

I can definitely thumb palm them too, it's the open palm (straight thumb) style that's eluding me.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Marlin1894
View Profile
Special user
565 Posts

Profile of Marlin1894
My bad, sorry. I misunderstood what you were trying to do.
french_nobody
View Profile
New user
2 Posts

Profile of french_nobody
I send you a PM ! hope this help !
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2018, Marlin1894 wrote:
My bad, sorry. I misunderstood what you were trying to do.


No sweat - thanks for being helpful either way!



Quote:
On Sep 24, 2018, french_nobody wrote:
I send you a PM ! hope this help !


Thanks, I'll keep at it.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Thomas Gilroy
View Profile
New user
Ireland
70 Posts

Profile of Thomas Gilroy
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2018, Marlin1894 wrote:

I'm a little baffled as to how Thomas is actually gripping those dice. It looks good, I just don't see how the grip is being applied. Then again, I've never seen a real description of the "correct" way to do it.


It's getting a little late here for me to write a full description of the palm and the switch right now, but I'll try to write something up in the next few days. I'll try to take pictures to accompany the description also. Hopefully that would be of some help to you and to Last Laugh.

The dice are quite secure in my hand when I perform the open palm. Actually, more secure in my hand than when I try the thumb palm position you've shown, but I haven't really practiced switching with that grip.
Thomas Gilroy
View Profile
New user
Ireland
70 Posts

Profile of Thomas Gilroy
I have some time now, so I'll describe the palm and the switch as best I can.

I'm be using these two pairs of dice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3694kqj954mtb......jpg?dl=0

The purple pair are just a hair smaller than the red pair though both are nominally 3/4". I'll be using this orientation where the dice are aligned with each other in order to describe where I'm exerting pressure on dice.

First, it's important to understand the pressure that's being applied to the dice in the open palm. In the open palm, pressure is exerted by the thumb and the side of the palm into adjacent faces on each die. The grip is quite secure, but is not tight. Exerting too much pressure into adjacent faces will result in die being squeezed out of the grip.

Consider this picture:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2z03xp3s6935tx......jpg?dl=0


Here I'm holding a single die by adjacent faces with my thumb and forefinger. If I pinch in this grip, the die will fall. However, with gentle pressure, the grip is surprisingly secure. I can move my hand and the die will not drop.

With this in mind, try to grip a single die between the thumb and the side of the palm by exerting gentle pressure into adjacent faces. Try to do this in various positions along the length of the thumb.

For example, here is a shallow grip (near the thumb tip):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyz5zahe8txni8......jpg?dl=0

Here is an intermediate grip (middle of the thumb):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g7guqz9nap7zf......jpg?dl=0

Here is a deep grip:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1vebb227u58b5t......jpg?dl=0


The deep grip causes some skin of the base of the thumb to contact the innermost face of the die. The grip for two dice is applied similarly, with one die in the shallow grip position and one die in the deep grip position:

The sixes are the innermost faces on each die. The ones point in the direction of my fingers. The fours point out. Light pressure is exerted into the twos and threes of the dice with the thumb and side of the palm respectively. There is some skin contact with the six of the die in the deep grip position. I do not attempt to grip the one of the die in the shallow position by bending my thumb.

The grip is secure:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vf8an400h9rpho......jpg?dl=0

If you're comfortable with the open palm position for the two dice, then attempt the switch. The purple dice begin in a finger palm position. To find this position, I recommend picking up these dice between the first and fourth fingers as shown:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9v29gwl2ceunlv......jpg?dl=0

Now, curl the fingers into this position:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k34k4js9wn2xgd......jpg?dl=0

Holding the dice between the first and fourth fingers inn this manner limits the chance of leaking on the fourth finger side. We begin with the purple dice in the starting position:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4sad06t6vcx5rm......jpg?dl=0

We approach the red dice with the loose fist and open the thumb and first finger to grip the dice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d47fu00ptfle9w......jpg?dl=0

Opening the thumb and first finger in this manner allows for the held out dice to flash on the thumb side. I keep my hand low and open the grip near the red dice to prevent this, so the red dice block line of sight to the purple dice.

Taking the red dice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnsfes0cqyd97v......jpg?dl=0

To lock the dice into position, I contact the outer face of the outer dice (the one) with the tip of my index finger and push the dice toward the base of the thumb:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/02sbrgd6cgum2e......jpg?dl=0

Now, the secure the grip, the outer die is rotated 90 degrees:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n78cxkds345nfo......jpg?dl=0

Initially the three face upward. After the rotation, the six faces upward and and the three faces in the direction of the fingers.

An exposed view of the rotation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpcl14btbelau2......jpg?dl=0

An exposed view of completed rotation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpkd3yula57zlg......jpg?dl=0

The hand with both pairs of dice concealed:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpkd3yula57zlg......jpg?dl=0

The thumb applies gentle pressure to the adjacent faces to secure the open palm grip. To release the purple dice, simply extend the fingers:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/00kmkc00dyr29z......jpg?dl=0

Obviously, the purple dice would be released in the low and fast to prevent any exposure of the red dice.

This is the final position of the red dice in the hand:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyrncl1vakh5gl......jpg?dl=0

By picking up the purple dice with the first and fourth finger as described above, the open palm switch can be reversed, taking the purple dice into the loose fist position and releasing the red dice from the open palm position.
Last Laugh
View Profile
Inner circle
Grass Valley, California
3501 Posts

Profile of Last Laugh
Thanks so much, that really helps. I wasn't getting the thumb's role, rather I was trying to get purchase with the base of the forefinger. I can definitely hold them in as you describe.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this!


I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like there is something else going on with Fast Jack here :


Image
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast

Check out my products!

Direct from me (PW: cassidy)

On Penguin Magic
Thomas Gilroy
View Profile
New user
Ireland
70 Posts

Profile of Thomas Gilroy
Quote:
On Sep 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Thanks so much, that really helps. I wasn't getting the thumb's role, rather I was trying to get purchase with the base of the forefinger. I can definitely hold them in as you describe.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this!


Glad to help.

Quote:
On Sep 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like there is something else going on with Fast Jack here :

...


I think Jack is reinforcing the grip by applying gentle pressure with the base of the first finger. That might provide a little more security, but it's not crucial. The grip is plenty secure with just the gentle pressure on the adjacent faces.

I can hold the dice in position with pressure from the base of the forefinger alone. The grip isn't quite as secure, and I can't keep the hand flat if I do that. The thumb needs to run along the sides of the dice to prevent leaking anyway, so it may as well provide gentle pressure on the adjacent faces.
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2478 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Thomas Gilroy did an incredible job of explaining and showing how to thumb palm two dice. Evidently this is easy for some and very difficult for others and I don't understand why. However without in any way of being boastful or to cast any aspersions on those who may have had difficulty with this move, let me briefly tell my experience with the thumb switch, (or open palm switch). This can possible stimulate others to write about their experience with learning moves - any moves for that matter.

It also may help others who may think the thumb switch is a very imposing or near impossible move, or are apprehensive learning this switch.

I learned the thumb switch when I was 14-15 years old from a one-page description and one or two still photos from Scarne On Dice.

At the time I was learning magic and practicing with coins, balls, thimbles and silks in addition to cards. I had learned and was practicing the classic palm and the thumb palm with coins, balls and thimbles and the back and front palm in conjunction with split fans with cards plus various flourishes.

However, I was fascinated with gambling techniques so when I read Scarne's description of the Palm Switch and Thumb Switch in his dice book, I ran out and bought two pairs of 5/8 inch dice from the local five and dime store. When I got home I could not wait to try out the two dice switches (in addition to the control shots - which is another story perhaps for another time).

The thumb switch took one to two tries to be able to do it proficiently and to thumb palm the dice securely. It was really that easy to do probably because I had been using the move with coins and thimbles and because I was using 5/8 inch dice.

In 5 about minutes it was a "piece of cake" to do that switch. I could easily place the right hand flat on the table, fingers naturally extended with no bend in the thumb to grip the dice. The palm switch took some work though, even with 5/8 inch dice. (Later, when I became conversant with professional dice hustlers, they all used the Tip Switch instead of the Palm Switch with the larger casino sized dice, plus the Thumb Switch. Scarne did not mention the Tip Switch and I don't think he knew it at the time of his writing his book.)

Being fascinated by the switches and control shots, I then ordered some 11/16 and 3/4 inch casino sized Ts with squares to match, in addition to How to Control Fair Dice from the KC Card Company.

The Palm Switch with casino sized dice was impossible for me to do. The Tip Switch was learned later in life, but the Thumb Switch was just about as easy with 11/6 and 3/4 inch dice. Just took a little practice to get used to the larger sized dice and one had to watch his angles more. (By the way, doing these moves under fire is a totally different ballgame.)

I am not telling this story to in any way disparage anyone who was or is having trouble learning the Thumb Switch or any switch for the matter, nor in any way to tout my prowess. That is not my intent nor is it the point of the story.

The point is, for some this move (and perhaps other moves) is relatively easy to master and for others it is apparently hard and I really can't get a handle on why.

Was it the thumb switch this easy for me because I was practicing similar moves with coins? Was it because I started out with 5/8 inch dice? Was it because I was practicing piano and the scales for one - two hours per day and that strengthened my hands and fingers? Or are some things simply easier for some than for others?


Curious???

Any ideas on this from members, both for learning this particular move or for other moves with cards or dice they have mastered or tried to master?

Might be interesting to get some input or ideas on this concept.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Fast Jack's Open Palm (4 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.41 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL