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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Fast Jack's Open Palm (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Last Laugh
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Well for what it's worth, I've been able to get farther along with this. I can now hold the dice in the open palm position tightly and comfortably. I can't yet pick them up on the fly with the little locking thing that Fast Jack does, but that will come. FWIW - for me to feel that it's very locked, I do need to use the base of my index finger just like you see in the Fast Jack image.

It just sort of clicked for me after Thomas' description. I was just missing a part of the picture.

Image


Thumb palm is no problem with either size of dice for me, though it doesn't feel quite as sturdy (and requires a slight bend of the thumb of course, which is a tell)

Image



Finally - can someone tip me the tip switch? Not familiar with that one, unless it's the same as the the drop switch?
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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 5, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

...Finally - can someone tip me the tip switch? Not familiar with that one, unless it's the same as the the drop switch?


It is.
Last Laugh
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Ah okay. So in your experience the thumb and tip were the most common?

Interesting, I guess that makes sense as the open palm is a little more idiosyncratic. In the Fast Jack Penguin lecture, he claims that the drop/tip switch was more dangerous and easier to spill from, but I'm sure that's subjective.

He also says that some consider the thumb and open palm to refer to the same thing, but no doubt they are different.

In regards to your question, I think for many of these moves, having a history of sleight of hand does make a big difference in their acquisition.

For me, I think the open palm was giving me trouble specifically because it's not very similar to anything done with coins and such (that I'm aware of at least).
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Cagliostro
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The Thumb Switch and the Open Palm Switch are the same. I can see no difference.
Last Laugh
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Fast Jack describes them as different in his lecture. He says, quote, "A lot of guys say they do the Open Palm but they don't. This is the move they use. They use the Open Thumb".

This is a screen grab of 'the move they use'
Image


The way I understand it, the Thumb involves holding the dice between the upper pad of the thumb and the base of the thumb (exaggerated for emphasis here):

Image


He then demonstrates what he calls the Open Palm and shows that the dice are held between the base of the forefinger and the base of the thumb with some amount of pinching along the edges of the dice in the crotch of the thumb.

Image


Image

The pad of the thumb isn't involved and the thumb can be straight as opposed to notably bent.
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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 5, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

Fast Jack describes them as different in his lecture. He says, quote, "A lot of guys say they do the Open Palm but they don't. This is the move they use. They use the Open Thumb"...

...He then demonstrates what he calls the Open Palm and shows that the dice are held between the base of the forefinger and the base of the thumb with some amount of pinching along the edges of the dice in the crotch of the thumb.

The pad of the thumb isn't involved and the thumb can be straight as opposed to notably bent.


Magicians and demonstrators debate this type nomenclature endlessly and for academic discussion it is okay and sometimes serves a purpose. But rather that parse words, when I refer to the Thumb Switch, I am referring to the move Jack calls the Open Palm Switch in which the thumb is held STRAIGHT. The tip of the thumb plays no part in holding the dice.

I think using the tip of the thumb to hold the dice is very amateurish and poor technique. If fact, I have only seen it done once that way by a magician doing a demo, and a couple of hustlers that I met that came in from Rhode Island. (These guys also used the tip of the forefinger to jam and hold the dice into the thumb crotch when doing a money switch which was used when hustling private games.)

The casino dice hustlers I knew who used this move to bust-out in gambling spots in the US, Cuba and Vegas in the old days, called it the Thumb Switch or it was simply a switch or gypsy.

The thumb is always held straight for this move.

Hope this clarifies what I am talking about.

"A rose by any other name is still a rose." (Quote by some old English bloke who wrote some plays. Can't quite recall his name though.) Smile
Last Laugh
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:


Hope this clarifies what I am talking about.

Indeed it does, thanks!
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Thomas Gilroy
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Quote:
On Oct 5, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
Thomas Gilroy did an incredible job of explaining and showing how to thumb palm two dice.


Thank you.

Honestly, I didn't find the open palm switch to be particularly difficult when I started. Actually, I rarely find any sleight difficult if I can understand precisely what I'm trying to achieve.

I've always been naturally dexterous. I have played guitar for about 18 years, and while it feels boastful and self-aggrandizing to say it, I have virtuoso level technique. I have spent thousands of hours practicing, in particular during my teenage years. I'm also highly focused and analytical by nature and I have developed an explicit conceptual understanding of the physical problems of playing that instrument, and I have engineered technical solutions to the majority of those problems.

When learning sleights, I just take the same approach as I do when practicing my guitar technique. I try to get a clear, conceptual understanding of what I need my hands to do and why. I watch experts, and make careful note of their methods. I listen to what they say, but I also study their positions and movements. Often, experts understand fine details on an intuitive, subconscious level. I try to recognize all of those details.

I consider the differences between my hands and those of the experts, and try to determine what must be adjusted or modified for my anatomy. I practice the movements slowly, with full focus and with the correct rhythm. For sleights, that usually involves a mirror. Then, when I have that sequence internalized, I perform many repetitions of that movement sequence and work up to tempo.

Sometimes I am able to vary, extend or further develop a move based on an understanding of the mechanics principles. I independently discovered both the Vernon "dead hand" bottom palm and the Earnest Earick bottom palm based on my understanding of the Erdnase bottom palm.

I am not a magician or demonstrator nor am I any kind of hustler. I practice sleights because I enjoy practicing sleights. I find it cathartic, and I can do it almost anywhere. If I had to make time to develop the necessary skills to be proficient in those disciplines beyond sleight of hand, maybe I wouldn't have progressed as fast as I have. If I cared more about sleight of hand and less about mathematics, music and martial arts, maybe I would progress faster.
Last Laugh
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Question for Cagliostro and anyone else who does this move:

Do you rotate the front dice when getting them into position as Fast Jack does?

I watched Steve Forte do the move in the GPS, and it doesn't look like he does. Granted, the angle isn't totally clear in GPS, so it's possible that he might...
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Last Laugh
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*Die

Rats - I hate it when people misuse plurals such as 'dice', and look I did it myself...
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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 13, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Question for Cagliostro and anyone else who does this move:

Do you rotate the front dice when getting them into position as Fast Jack does?


Been quite some time since I watched the Fast Jack Penguin lecture and don't have the time to go through it to find out what you are referring to. But the quick answer is, I do not rotate the front die when I do the move. Both dice slide directly into position. Prior to lining up the dice to do the move, I guess you can flop a die to get it into position but once they are together I slide them straight back into the thumb crotch.

Why don't you email Fast Jack and ask him. He is a master at this and has been doing it for years under fire. Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.
Last Laugh
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Thanks, I may just email him. He does explain it pretty clearly in the lecture, he uses a forward rotation of the front most die to 'lock in' the dice. But I was just wondering if that was something that everyone does. I believe Thomas Gilroy said he does, as does a person that PMd with some help, but it doesn't appear the Steve Forte does that.

Thanks
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Gamblingman007
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Quote:
On Oct 13, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Question for Cagliostro and anyone else who does this move:

Do you rotate the front dice when getting them into position as Fast Jack does?

I watched Steve Forte do the move in the GPS, and it doesn't look like he does. Granted, the angle isn't totally clear in GPS, so it's possible that he might...


The answer to your question is yes. The second die should be rotated into position above the first die, it’s a natural motion.
Gamblingman007
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Quote:
On Oct 5, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
The Thumb Switch and the Open Palm Switch are the same. I can see no difference.


The thumb switch is totally different from the palm switch. The hand can be held much straighter with a thumb grip than with a palm grip. If someone smacks the back of your hand while playing dice the chances are most likely the dice will fall out of a palm grip than a thumb grip. Why? Because the thumb area is most unlikely to get hit because it’s on the side of the hand.
Gamblingman007
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[quote]On Sep 21, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm not really a dice guy, but I can do the open palm switch. I don't think I have particularly big hands, my fingers are pretty long but slender.

Not sure why I can't get the dice to stay put!



You can’t get the dice to stay put because you haven’t practiced enough so that the crevice between your thumb and first finger becomes accustomed to holding both dice.

Keep on practicing and it will slowly come.
Gamblingman007
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On Sep 23, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Lol, thanks.

I did actually just read an article about a technique where guys are having their legs broken, and some apparatus is inserted that slowly stretches and regrows the bones over several months and they can put on up to 3 inches of height. All you have to do is pay $100,000, go through extended excruciating pain and be wheelchair bound for 3 or 4 months.


As far as the dice go, I'm not sure if it's actually a size thing - as I see Thomas has hands that are very close in size (judging by the dice), so unless he just has looser skin, I might be missing something in terms of what is holding the dice in on the index finger side. I can get it to work with more of a thumb palm (bent thumb) but that's clearly a different technique.

Anyway - I'll keep playing with it.


The bent thumb is a different technique..
Last Laugh
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Thanks for the tips. I've been practicing and I can do it pretty well with a single die, but that second one is difficult to get to stay put.
But it is coming along, if I do it slow and methodically I can get both into position at least.
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slim23
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Hi Last Laugh,

For practise, you might want to try with feather edge dice. Jack says these are the best for his technique( the one you mention). It will help the rotation of the second dice, it that makes any sense. He showed me how he did it with these type of dice. (For practise or for real actually)

Cheers,

Slim
Gamblingman007
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On Oct 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Thanks for the tips. I've been practicing and I can do it pretty well with a single die, but that second one is difficult to get to stay put.
But it is coming along, if I do it slow and methodically I can get both into position at least.


In order to get good at it, while walking or doing anything just keep doing this technique while your hand is in your pocket (so that no one sees you practicing it) eventually you will get the hang of it and it will become so natural. Happy Practicing.

For practicing only practice with the dice that you will constantly be using. Why. Every culture play with a certain type of die. If you’re going to be a demonstrator that’s one thing a hustler has to be versatile because he doesn’t know what dice he’ll be playing with.
Last Laugh
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Quote:
On Oct 26, 2018, slim23 wrote:
Hi Last Laugh,

For practise, you might want to try with feather edge dice. Jack says these are the best for his technique( the one you mention). It will help the rotation of the second dice, it that makes any sense. He showed me how he did it with these type of dice. (For practise or for real actually)

Cheers,

Slim


That's great to know - thanks. I'll see if I can find some.


Quote:
On Oct 26, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:

For practicing only practice with the dice that you will constantly be using. Why. Every culture play with a certain type of die. If you’re going to be a demonstrator that’s one thing a hustler has to be versatile because he doesn’t know what dice he’ll be playing with.


Most evenings if I'm watching TV or whatever with the Mrs., I'll alternate between false shuffles and deals and dice switches. In fact, watching a show or movie and NOT having something in my hands feels weird...
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