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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » The Real Deal - John Bukowski (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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liamwilson1125
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Just see this one from Saturn Magic. Has anyone checked this out yet? Any reviews? John mentioned in the trailer "the easiest bottom, second and greek deal" - https://youtu.be/62qBixXbM2g

I practiced the deals above and after a decade they are not easy at all.
Peterson
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"Second from bottom Greek Deal."
Does this mean dealing a third card from the bottom?
Cagliostro
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On Sep 28, 2018, Peterson wrote:
"Second from bottom Greek Deal."
Does this mean dealing a third card from the bottom?


LOL Smile
Last Laugh
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Why is he poking us aggressively at the end of the video?

Also.... 'easiest' may not be the right aim for false deals. I mean, wouldn't the easiest bottom be where you just turn the deck over?
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Cagliostro
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For those who are interested, here is the ad copy for this product on Saturn Magic UK:

Quote:
This is John Bukowski's refined interpretation of the Second Deal, Bottom Deal and Second from Bottom Deal A.K.A. The GREEK Deal. Three of the most highly regarded false deals in the world of close-up magic. In this download, John teaches the subtleties and nuances that will make your False Deals invisible and flawless. Filmed in high-definition, you'll learn every detail of technique, from grip to finger placement and hand motion, to bring your second deal to the next level.

When you alter the grip on the deck when switching between false deals, the shift in grip can ultimately expose the move. With this grip and dealing process that is built from the ground up on the exact same grip, your false deals can flow seamlessly from one to the other, all while remaining invisible. The finger placement and grip result in a normal mechanics appearance, without the telltale signs of finger movement when Bottom and Greek Dealing. With this technique, you don't have the DEAL LAG when you're dealing regularly and you then do a false deal -- IT HAS BEEN ELIMINATED!

John has created a whole new way of doing these deals that has eliminated the deal lag and finger movement, and it's easy and deceptive!!

John will show you how to Second Deal with only 4 fingers and Bottom Deal with only 3 fingers!! That's how easy it is. (The 3 and 4 finger techniques are for practicing only.)

All who buy this will receive John's One Handed Bottom Deal (which uses the 3-finger approach).

Technical Breakdown:
The Grip
Strike Second Deal
Bottom Deal
Second from Bottom Deal A.K.A. The GREEK Deal
This is the easiest Second, Bottom and Greek Deals you will ever do!

Download the video and start learning the REAL way!


Probably a good product but alas, no Center Deal. Smile
liamwilson1125
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On Sep 28, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Probably a good product but alas, no Center Deal. Smile


I also look for other video sources for Center Deal. The Real Deal of Jeff Lianza does include Center Deal, but the grip is just a bit awkward. Another point is he is so much influenced by DM. I believe DM is his card cheat mentor as well.

So far nothing at the moment can be compared to videos of legendary Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Jason England, Martin Nash and Darwin Ortiz in terms of Center Deal. Just my opinion.
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On Sep 28, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

I also look for other video sources for Center Deal...

So far nothing at the moment can be compared to videos of legendary Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Jason England, Martin Nash and Darwin Ortiz in terms of Center Deal...


Do you mean all these gentlemen can do a very deceptive and/or undetectable center deal when viewed from the angles and viewing elevation one would encounter in a card game...that is viewing these deals from the front, left side and right side with normal game level elevation?
liamwilson1125
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Quote:
On Sep 28, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Do you mean all these gentlemen can do a very deceptive and/or undetectable center deal when viewed from the angles and viewing elevation one would encounter in a card game...that is viewing these deals from the front, left side and right side with normal game level elevation?


Good question. I can only give you my answer when I did witnessed their deals in real life. However through instructional videos, IMO, they are good enough.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Sep 28, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

Quote:
On Sep 28, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Do you mean all these gentlemen can do a very deceptive and/or undetectable center deal when viewed from the angles and viewing elevation one would encounter in a card game...that is viewing these deals from the front, left side and right side with normal game level elevation?


Good question. I can only give you my answer when I did witnessed their deals in real life. However through instructional videos, IMO, they are good enough.


First of all, I am not questioning the manipulative skill of the gentlemen mentioned above. They are all skillful demonstrators of gambling type moves, whether real or not.

However, I do not understand your sentence that "through instructional videos, they are good enough." Are you saying that because these gentlemen have demonstrated skillfully executed "card moves" on video or in front of an audience, that in itself would imply they could (or can) do an undetectable center deal, even though you have not seen them do so?

Perhaps you could clarify this for me as I am curious.
liamwilson1125
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On Sep 29, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Are you saying that because these gentlemen have demonstrated skillfully executed "card moves" on video or in front of an audience, that in itself would imply they could (or can) do an undetectable center deal, even though you have not seen them do so?


It is partly what I mean. I am also curious the term "undetectable". It depends on many factors I think.

For example if I sit on the left hand of Steve Forte, good luck to spot his center.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Sep 29, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

It is partly what I mean. I am also curious the term "undetectable". It depends on many factors I think.

For example if I sit on the left hand of Steve Forte, good luck to spot his center.


Of course, the term "undetectable" can be somewhat subjective, depending upon the circumstances. However, in this context it would mean unnoticeable, imperceptible, invisible, subtle, perhaps inaudible. But in general invisible to the viewer - a move that fools others at the table and appears to be a "normal" uncontrived deal.

Further, I don't know if you were being flippant or not, but even if you were sitting on the left of Steve Forte to apparently conceal seeing any weaknesses to his center deal, what about the other people who would view his move from the right side or front. Would they need "good luck" to spot the move?

I don't mean to disparage Steve Forte in any way. He is one of the most skillful manipulators of gambling type moves ever. However, I have seen him do a center deal on his Gambling Protection Series and quite frankly I don't think it would fly except possibly as a demo move because it was not very deceptive. Further, when Forte performed his "center deal" on national TV in the Hidden Secrets of Magic show, he used a pseudo center deal in his demonstration, using a bottom deal to fake the center deal. Of course, the demo he did took considerable skill and he performed it impeccably well, but here is one of the most skillful men with a deck of cards ever having to use a pseudo center deal to enable the move be deceptive under reasonable scrutiny.

Darwin Ortiz is also an extremely skillful card magician who has mastered many gambling type demo moves. However, he also uses a pseudo center deal in lieu of a real center deal, employing a second deal to fake the center deal.

If these two gentlemen have to perform a pseudo center deal in lieu of performing a real center deal when they need to perform a deceptive demo, what does that say about the efficacy and undetectability of the center deal move itself?

Have you actually seen anyone perform a truly deceptive center deal, either on video or in person, that would fly under reasonable scrutiny from different angles in a card table or game format?

I don't know. Maybe you have. But I have not and I have been around gambling for a long time and known some very capable guys. (Capable means someone who actually can get the money under fire, not a magician or demonstrator.)
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I should also mention that around hustlers and capable people, I have never heard anyone discuss a center deal in any serious vein. It is not even mentioned except perhaps on rare occasion in jest.

The center deal is almost entirely a concept bandied about by magicians and demonstrators. It is not seriously discussed among hustlers as having any real practicality for serious hustling.

Dai Vernon started the entire center deal discussion with his revelation of the Kennedy Center Deal. I believe that was in the 1940s. It was supposed to be "oh, so hush-hush" among the upper echelon of magicians at the time and some poorer versions of the center deal appeared in Expert Card Technique thereafter.

It appears credible that Kennedy used his version of the center deal in some of the private games in which he played in the 30s and 40s. How much money he made with the move, how serious the games he played in were and how effective the move was under fire cannot be determined objectively and the stories by Vernon and his followers are basically hearsay. Vernon loved to use hyperbole and one upmanship on the other magicians and no doubt could embellish his revelations to a certain degree or perhaps even greatly.

However, Tony giorgio said he saw the Kennedy Center deal demonstrated at the Magic Castle in LA a few times, mostly by Charlie Miller who had evidently mastered the move. He said the move had a somewhat unnatural grip and dealing procedure and was somewhat awkward. Giorgio also said there were much better and more practical ways to get the money other than the center deal, ways that did not require the great skill and practice needed to master the move and were more deceptive.
AMcD
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On Sep 30, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:
For example if I sit on the left hand of Steve Forte, good luck to spot his center.

Provided it's not even a center deal, yeah, good luck.
liamwilson1125
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Cag,

Your examples of Darwin and Steve raise the question if center deal is practical in real card game.

I can say that the deal is practical, but not many times in a card game. I did see one man in Asia (I would keep his identity as a secret) dealt from the center of the deck only once in his private game. The number of cards he dealt were 2.

The deck he used was his deck, and he needed to feel the cards somehow before hitting center.

The interesting point was he showed me again (not teaching) after the game. I saw from all angles (not under the table), the deal was truly "undetectable". No breaks.
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@liamwilson1125: Can't really comment on your above post as it is only a hearsay account of a somewhat magical feat of legerdemain with no details or substantiation offered. It is simply too nebulous to discuss.
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In Karl Johnson's incredibly well researched book The Magician and the Cardsharp, Johnson notes that that the available evidence points to lots of folks having seen Alan Kennedy's centre deal.

We know that Kennedy was a hustler, and he would have refined his card moves down to only the ones he could make money with.

Johnson's book makes clear that Kennedy used the centre deal under fire ... so the internet pundits that declare the centre deal a farce need to get on the research bandwagon and offer up something as evidence to support their claims ... something that's at least as well researched (with detailed notes) as Johnson's book.

There are respectable amounts of incredibly well researched, and easily available reference materials one can access in 2018 ... reference materials which describe in detail the effective use of the centre deal under fire.
The pundits stating the opposite need to spend a bit of coin and update their reference libraries before making absolute statements that are easily refuted with available research materials.
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On Sep 30, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

In Karl Johnson's incredibly well researched book The Magician and the Cardsharp, Johnson notes that that the available evidence points to lots of folks having seen Alan Kennedy's centre deal.


Lots of folks have seen his center deal??? LOTS OF FOLKS??? And he is a professional hustler???

This demonstrates the vast difference between the magician/hobbyist/demonstrator set (hereinafter MDH) and active experienced hustlers. Most MDHs view these methods through a different prism than the hustler because they lack actual hustling experience and have never worked under fire. The last thing an active hustler would want to do, one who is using his methods to get the money, would be to have a "lot of people" knowing and seeing what he does and how he does it. However, for the MDH set, it is just the opposite. To them the more people that see and "revel" in a move, the more people that are interviewed and attest to its efficacy, the more likely the move is "real" and would and can get the money under fire.

I know this dichotomy would be absurd to an objective unbiased observer, but that is the way it is.

However, I do believe Kennedy used a center deal in the private games in which he played during the era in question. Context, time and place are at least as relevant as the method being used. There were a myriad of cheating tricks and ploys being used during that time period in card games, many of which in my opinion were better suited, more practical, easier to do and more deceptive that the center deal. There is no doubt in my mind there were others over the years that have used and perhaps do still use the center deal, or at least attempt to do so. How effective the results are and under what circumstances would be difficult to ascertain - but it is not an effective or practical ploy in fast company today.

Quote:
Johnson's book makes clear that Kennedy used the centre deal under fire ... so the internet pundits that declare the centre deal a farce need to get on the research bandwagon and offer up something as evidence to support their claims


Internet pundits? The term appears to be used in this context in a condescending and belittling manner. Hopefully we are not attacking persons with contrary views rather than objectively discussing their arguments. However, referring to my posts on this thread, perhaps I did not make myself completely clear. The factual information presented in my posts clearly state that two of the most respected card table manipulators of today use pseudo center deals for demo purposes, presumable because their center deal is not deceptive enough under close scrutiny. Also, see the comments by Steve Forte in his book Poker Protection on the efficacy of the center deal.

Quote:
There are respectable amounts of incredibly well researched, and easily available reference materials one can access in 2018 ... reference materials which describe in detail the effective use of the centre deal under fire.

The pundits stating the opposite need to spend a bit of coin and update their reference libraries before making absolute statements that are easily refuted with available research materials.


Once again this is somewhat condescending implying those with a contrary view only have that opinion because they are too lazy or stupid to do the necessary research.

However, one can also say that "pundits" touting the efficacy of something they have never witnessed under fire and have no hustling experience themselves would be well to "spend a bit of coin" in getting some actual hustling experience under fire to see what does or does not work, rather than relying solely on conclusions reached by reading books written primarily, or exclusively, by magicians, academics and non-hustlers.

(To intelligently and authoritatively discuss brain surgery, one must actually have performed brain surgery himself.)

The center deal is the meat of non-hustlers (magicians, hobbyist and demonstrators). Certainly, it can be used, and has been used to cheat in card games. ALMOST ANYTHING CAN BE. It all depends on a number of other factors outside of the move or method itself.

I'm sure that Kennedy had a very good center deal. No doubt others do also. That is not the point. The point is there are far better, more deceptive and safer ways to get the money than the center deal. Its reputation far exceeds its efficacy and practicality under fire.

The center deal can be "performed" nicely but in and of itself, is not a premier or "high-line" cheating methodology. It is limited in application, limited in effectiveness and VERY dependent on where and how it is used.

Now if someone disagrees with that, well... Smile
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Good grief, what are you talking about? ... nobody is arguing the centre deal as an effective tool in 2018.

You said: "I have never heard anyone discuss a center deal in any serious vein. It is not even mentioned except perhaps on rare occasion in jest"
Then you said: "The center deal is almost entirely a concept bandied about by magicians and demonstrators"
Then you say: "I'm sure that Kennedy had a very good center deal. No doubt others do also"

All in response to me saying: "Johnson's book makes clear that Kennedy used the centre deal under fire"

You're arguing out of both sides of your mouth for no apparent purpose but to argue, and somehow come out on top, as an authority of one.
Fill your boots.
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On Oct 2, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

Fill your boots.


You lost me on this one.

Fill your boots?

Is that the same as what the gunfighters of the old west would say when they challenged someone to a gun fight -- "Fill your hand." Smile
Mr. Bones
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Maybe it's a "Canadianism" Cag ... and I'm Canadian.

It means:
"have your fill"
or:
"continue on with what you're doing or saying"

Regardless, I suspect we're saying approximately the same thing ... but saying it from completely different viewpoints - and elaborating on completely different aspects of the same basic idea.
Mr. Bones
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