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Cagliostro
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On Oct 2, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

...Regardless, I suspect we're saying approximately the same thing ... but saying it from completely different viewpoints - and elaborating on completely different aspects of the same basic idea.


I think you are giving me too much credit. I never claimed that I knew what I was talking about or that there was any cogency to my argument. Smile
KardSharp89
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On Sep 30, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
I should also mention that around hustlers and capable people, I have never heard anyone discuss a center deal in any serious vein. It is not even mentioned except perhaps on rare occasion in jest.

The center deal is almost entirely a concept bandied about by magicians and demonstrators. It is not seriously discussed among hustlers as having any real practicality for serious hustling.

Dai Vernon started the entire center deal discussion with his revelation of the Kennedy Center Deal. I believe that was in the 1940s. It was supposed to be "oh, so hush-hush" among the upper echelon of magicians at the time and some poorer versions of the center deal appeared in Expert Card Technique thereafter.

It appears credible that Kennedy used his version of the center deal in some of the private games in which he played in the 30s and 40s. How much money he made with the move, how serious the games he played in were and how effective the move was under fire cannot be determined objectively and the stories by Vernon and his followers are basically hearsay. Vernon loved to use hyperbole and one upmanship on the other magicians and no doubt could embellish his revelations to a certain degree or perhaps even greatly.

However, Tony giorgio said he saw the Kennedy Center deal demonstrated at the Magic Castle in LA a few times, mostly by Charlie Miller who had evidently mastered the move. He said the move had a somewhat unnatural grip and dealing procedure and was somewhat awkward. Giorgio also said there were much better and more practical ways to get the money other than the center deal, ways that did not require the great skill and practice needed to master the move and were more deceptive.


I respectfully disagree with you on that. I am not a magician (all though I love magic and have a great respect for magicians) I am or I guess I should say... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years. I have played in some of the biggest games in the world and I can promise you...the center deal has been used effectively under fire many many times. We don't talk about it much...because, well...why would we? lol
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
Jerry
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Mr.Bones can you list the resources you based you statement below?
I am always interested in materials that are not in my possession.

Mr. Bones wrote: "...reference materials which describe in detail the effective use of the centre deal under fire".

Thank you.
Cagliostro
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On Oct 11, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:

I am or I guess I should say... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years. I have played in some of the biggest games in the world and I can promise you...the center deal has been used effectively under fire many many times. We don't talk about it much...because, well...why would we? lol


Right! Smile
Mr. Bones
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On Oct 11, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:
...... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years.....


So you hustled all the poker games you played ... and we all know who you are in real life ... and you're claiming you're a "professional mechanic"?

You understand that simply playing a lot of poker on the square, when you also know how to do a bottom or a second deal (but don't actually execute at the table) doesn't actually make you a "professional mechanic" ... right?
To believe it does puts you firmly in the Daniel Madison camp.

I mean I've played poker since before Hold'Em was a thing ... and I started studying Erdnase when I was around 14 or 15 (I'm 61 now) ... but I've never hustled a game, and therefore couldn't in a million years call myself a "professional mechanic".

Do you want to step your comment back a notch or two (especially as you're using your real name), and simply note that you've played a lot of high end poker, and you know a few moves to boot?
That perhaps calling yourself a "professional mechanic" works as you try to monetize your card game history with a website for the same crowd that Daniel Madison shops after ... but folk here in this forum just ain't gonna be buying it!
Mr. Bones
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Bobbycash
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Out of interest, if anyone has access to the Genii Archive I’ve been recently re-reading all of Tony Giorgio’s letters and I must say he provides an (in my mind) incredibly interesting analysis of why the center deal was never used as described by Kennedy. In the process he also does a fairly stunning rebuke of the arguments put forward by David Ben and Karl Johnson.
The original reason for the Giorgio Letter concerning the center deal was the December 2001 issue of Genii. Giorgio’s first response can be found on page 84 of the October 2003 issue with David Ben’s response immediately after. A further response appears on the December 2003 issue (with a letter from Jim Swain included)
Peterson
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Bobbycash
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Interesting link Peterson, though I think the author could’ve done with some more research. The reason that the Giorgio Letter’s started was the Jim Patton asked Giorgio to elaborate on the problems with Erdnase back in the May 1991 edition of Genii. Regardless I should point out I do like and respect David Ben and I think he has some incredibly interesting thoughts and opinions!
Cagliostro
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Don't know who this author is. However, what he wrote is little more than an irritated rant about Giorgio. He appears to have no experience around gambling on any meaningful level. If he is a magician "gambling guru or expert," then all I can say he simply does not know much of what he speaks.

I have read all the Giorgio Letters over the years and have found them to be among the best gambling related material published in a magician publication. Giorgio of course had his opinion and could be somewhat adamant at times, but it was based upon his real-world gambling experience under fire...and he did have considerable experience in that area.

In fact, I have purchased Genii Magazine in the past just to read his letters. Based upon my recollection, and without having the time to unpack and dig out those letters to reread them again, as I recall I had no disagreement with anything he wrote and found him to be spot on.

His comments on Erdnase and the Kennedy Center Deal are certainly worthwhile reading and a different perspective on what I believe to be some questionable and unrealistic commentary on the subject.

But of course, that is just my opinion based upon my experience over the years around some very capable people and lacking in the otherwise"“established research" and "theoretical conclusions" on the subject by magician researchers, possibly (but not necessarily) with preconceived conclusions or an agenda.
Cagliostro
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When I mention above that I am believe Kennedy used a center deal in the games or game he played, and others may have tried this ploy over the years, it doesn't mean it is a good or practical move. It simply means Kennedy and others may have tried it with varying results over the years, maybe successfully in soft games, maybe not so successfully in tougher games. I absolutely guarantee it is not a top move and I would bet it was not used by anyone successfully in games with sharp and astute players, or if tried did not last for long.

How soft the game or games Kennedy played in is unknown, but I believe they were pretty easy games.

Here is another take on the center deal from the perspective of someone who worked surveillance in the Rainbow Club cardroom catwalk in Gardena, a place where I spent a number of years playing poker back in the day. It appears that people who have real time experience around hustling and live action games have a different opinion on the efficacy the center deal than many magicians, hobbyists and demonstrators have. Hustler I know and I (and evidently Giorgio) concur completely with Conley's observations on the center deal.

Quote:
On Sep 13, 2007, Ron Conley wrote:

My Take on the Center Deal

The center deal I saw from the catwalk of the Rainbow Club in Gardena is much different than what people believe. These were bridge size plastic Kims cards and only two cards were dealt the aces. This was eight-handed Draw Poker; the deck was 52+joker if you put two aces on the bottom and the cards are cut near the center. This puts the aces in approximately position 25 and 26, holding a break, and, dealing the first 7 cards put the aces in position 18 and 19. The first ace is dealt from position 19, the second from position 11. This would more of a high-center than a center. If you chose to deal the first card to yourself off the top, you would end up dealing centers from positions 11 and 3. There is no way to deal more than 3 centers with a cut near the middle; if the cut is deep, then, 2 cards is it. This, of course, pertains to the eight-handed game as played in Gardena, then the "Poker Capital of the World."

The small Persian man I saw doing the centers at the Rainbow always dealt the first two from the center. There was a definite false move when he picked up the deck, as the cards were never completely squared up. When he dealt the centers, his tempo changed; the deck went up higher but he did get them out and nobody at the table complained. Games like the 10 and 20 draw were usually pretty soft, so I don't believe that there were any tough spots in the game he was in. When I first saw it, I though he was dealing bottoms, but couldn't find the hop. Yes I'm aware of the move of holding out a couple of cards and capping them back on the bottom after the cut. There is also a neat little move used by some bottom dealers where a small group of cards slide under as the halves are put together, sort of like a blackjack muck with the upper part of the deck for cover. Getting out the binoculars and moving over to get an angle left no doubt this was the center deal.

So was this the ultimate move. The cheater that's so good that he can move on anybody and never be caught; sorry but that whole concept is a myth. This fellow does not make the top 1000 on my list. I never got to see this from the table but from what I saw upstairs it had to look bad. I do not believe this guy was a pro, having been around hustlers all my life. I have yet to have a single one tell me they saw or knew a center dealer. There's been a couple rare cases of a single blind center being dealt when location was used in A-5 lowball, for example: the top of the deck has 5 picture cards. Your single opponent is pat. As you pick up the deck to deal, the bottom is peeked. It’s another loser, so you take one from the center not knowing what it will be. These are not good moves and were only used in soft games without anyone gunning the deck...

...I hope this at least clears up my position on the center deal. Whether you believe it or not will be your call.........Ron


As you can see, this is a different perspective from the "established research" available to the magician, hobbyists and demonstrator set.
Mr. Bones
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I tend to doubt a few things that Giorgio had to say ... but you'd be a fool to doubt anything Ron Conley says if the subject is gambling and hustling.

(I know Giorgio was the "real deal", but he was also incredibly pig headed, and fundamentally unwilling to either defend things he said, or listen to anybody who had a counter-point to his own).
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Bobbycash
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Cag and Mr Bones,
I pretty much agree on all fronts. With Giorgio, yes sometimes he was pig headed, but from reading them chronologically I can see that he really just hated people who were magicians posing as gambling experts. I also should’ve put the caveat in about Ron’a anecdote as I remember reading it when it was first posted. Really interesting.
Jerry
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Ron Conley - "The One Man Bird & Bunny Show"?

Getting back to the OP - The Real Deal is it a good resource?
Cagliostro
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On Oct 17, 2018, Jerry wrote:

Ron Conley - "The One Man Bird & Bunny Show"?


I'm not very bright. Perhaps you can clarify this statement.
Mr. Bones
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...snip for Jerry....

Ron Conley, in a career spanning over 40 years, is a casino surveillance specialist, table game protection expert, casino administrator, expert witness, accomplished sleight of hand expert and professional poker player.

Ron has acted as Director Of Surveillance at the Bicycle Club Casino, Hawaiian Gardens Casino, and The Hustler Casino. He has been a Shift Manager at the Rainbow Club, Huntington Park Casino, Hawaiian Gardens Casino, Crystal Park Hotel And Casino and Club Caribe Casino.

He has done seminars and acted as a consultant for Casinos, Law Enforcement and Banking Groups including the Fresno Police Department, Fowler Police Department, Hollywood Park Casino, Bay 101 Casino, Club One Casino, The California Cardroom Owners Association, California State University Dominguez Hills, Bay 101 Casino, Wynn Las Vegas Casino, World Gaming Conference, Card Player Magazine and many many others.
Mr. Bones
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Jerry
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Mr. Bones, thank you.

Cag, my short research of Ron Conley only produced a Bunny Show magician. I was not certain it was the same person describe here.

Taking a chance and ordering "The Real Deal".

Wish list - "The Collected Writings of Giorgio". I would purchase this book in a New York Minute.
Cagliostro
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On Oct 11, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:

I respectfully disagree with you on that (re the Center Deal). I am not a magician (all though I love magic and have a great respect for magicians) I am or I guess I should say... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years. I have played in some of the biggest games in the world and I can promise you...the center deal has been used effectively under fire many many times. We don't talk about it much...because, well...why would we? lol


Yes, the Center Deal is oh so very "hush-hush." It is only discussed at length on this forum, magic magazines and books, on video tape, when magicians gather, at my aunt's sewing circle and so on. But you are right, "we don't' talk about it much...because, well...why should we." Smile

30 years a professional mechanic playing in the biggest games in the world (and presumably cheating and taking these games off.) I don't doubt you at all, so I assume you are in the Black Book of cheaters and prohibited persons, unless of course you were so good you never were caught. I have an old copy or two of the book, so I will check it when I get a chance to unpack the boxes that contain them.

Be that as it may, I should point out that George Devol has you beat by 10 years. He was "Forty Years a Gambler on the Mississippi."

By the way, did you also know George by any chance? Smile
Cagliostro
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On Oct 18, 2018, Jerry wrote:

Wish list - "The Collected Writings of Giorgio". I would purchase this book in a New York Minute.


I can't resist this one. Since I am originally from New York City, as I recall the correct expression is, "in a New York SECOND."

A "minute" to a New Yorker is an eternity.

The devil made me do this, Jerry. So PEACE to you. LOL
liamwilson1125
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On Oct 18, 2018, Jerry wrote:

Taking a chance and ordering "The Real Deal".


Jerry,

I just saw it yesterday and I did not know what to say. The method is too weird for me.
Jerry
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Cag, I am more familiar with the expression "New York MINUTE".

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p......20Minute

But, hey if I can get even faster, great!
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