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Last Laugh
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Curious if anyone with experience in the juice dept would suggest either of these products over the other? David Malek's kit vs the Juice Marker?

For paper cards. Marker sounds convenient...
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Cagliostro
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I don't know exactly what you are referring to since no links are provided to the products mentioned.

However, very briefly, Malek offered a 4-color daub kit several years ago and don't know if it is still available. I don't see it on his website. It consisted of silver, red, blue and green. The colors were in granular form and one had to pack them into daub containers, called "buttons" by hustlers.

Right out of the box it was okay for hobbyists and demo folks to practice and work with, to do their exposes or simply to learn about this type gaff. As I recall it was somewhat strong for professional work under fire and would have to be cut down for that purpose.

Shade or juice or daub or whatever you want to call all these preparations can be put on in different intensities...strongly for expose demonstration use so the layman can see it, less strongly to be read by the performer without exposing the modus operandi, and very lightly for actual use under fire. For professional work under fire, it is only a hint of a mark, essentially invisible, takes long practice to read and even more practice to play under fire effectively and without detection. At the professional level, this stuff is much harder to master than any "gambling" move you can think of and this level of mastery is beyond the reach of most.

Juice pen? I think I saw something like that many years ago and this may not be what you are referring to since no link is provided. But it was a reddish pen, supposed to simulate juice. As I recall it was not very good but once again, don't really know exactly what you are referring to. However, for expose or to simply learn about this type gaff, it may be quite satisfactory. After all, I don't think you are looking to walk into the Bellagio in Vegas with your pen and start to hit the cards on the poker or BJ games...are you?
Smile

For putzing around with this stuff, maybe the pen might be better.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
At the professional level, this stuff is much harder to master than any "gambling" move you can think of and this level of mastery is beyond the reach of most.


I think you're out of your mind. A great false shuffle sequence takes many months at the soonest. A great second deal takes a year or two to master. A bottom deal can easily take several years to master at the soonest. Reading very light shade, juice, white flash, or any other type of visible marking system may take several months, but doesn't take years. Does it require lots of practice? Yes. Does it take years and years? No.

Jason
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Mr. Bones
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I'd also suggest making a bit of your own juice before shelling out for the expensive stuff ... experiment a little on your own first.
You might also find out that your eyesight doesn't really cooperate with the concept behind juice.

A quick visit to your local drugstore, and the ladies make-up counter could lead to many interesting discoveries, as could hunting down anything associated with antiseptic dyes.

Just remember to minimize any involvement with alcohol in your experiements - denatured or otherwise. Seek other vehicles that don't dissolve the weak varnish on the backs of playing cards these days ... things like glycerin.

Experimentation might lead you someplace interesting.
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I want to pre mark them, not daub.

I've been using Brooklyn cards, which, though they aren't technically juice, use a similar method to read. I've gotten pretty comfortable with them, so I think I should be good with juice.

Also, it need not be super subtle. I am a performer after all.


The two I was looking at were:

https://markedcards.org/product/classic-juice-ink-kit/

He seems to have a good reputation, so I assume the product is good?


http://www.marked-cards.com/pricing%20-%......aper.htm

These were reviewed favorably here a number of years ago by Expert Magician if I recall correctly. The site is terrible looking and hasn't been updated in a while though.





Thanks for the tips, Mr. Bones. Glycerin is a great idea. I've tried a few solvents around the house, but everything takes the finish off. On top of being easy to find, glycerin is also not super nasty toxic. I'll ponder your other suggestions as well, I think I catch your drift.

Cheers
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Expertmagician owns that website, and sells the stuff shown on it, so I'd expect he'd also review it positively Smile

I'm sure both companies products would be perfectly fine for magic.
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Hi,

I can confirm what mister Malek does with juice is good. I have had the privilege to share techniques with David and his stuff is good but not easy to use.

Though it's the basic same idea, the Brooklyn cards (I know and sell) are much (and I mean really much) easier to spot then the juice decks I make (or any light juice for that matter). I don't know that juice pen you were thinking of buying but I don't use a pen. I think they don't work as well.

Cheers,

Slim
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Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

At the professional level, this stuff is much harder to master than any "gambling" move you can think of and this level of mastery is beyond the reach of most.


I think you're out of your mind. A great false shuffle sequence takes many months at the soonest. A great second deal takes a year or two to master. A bottom deal can easily take several years to master at the soonest. Reading very light shade, juice, white flash, or any other type of visible marking system may take several months, but doesn't take years. Does it require lots of practice? Yes. Does it take years and years? No.
Jason


LOL. Well it seems that you and my psychiatrist are in complete agreement regarding my sanity.

However, I have been doing this for most of my life and false shuffles, second dealing and the like in general did not take very long to learn to master and use effectively. They are not that hard to do. Timing and grift sense are much more important than superb mastery, except perhaps for demonstrators. Once one learns a bottom, second or say pull-through or strip out, the variations on these themes all follow pretty easily to master and apply thereafter. Actually, moves have always been pretty easy for me to learn, comparatively speaking. Applying them effectively takes some time, of course, but that is different than mastery of the moves.

However, I'm sure you are much more knowledgeable and capable than I at reading top paper effectively and undetectably under fire, and getting the money with it, so I acquiesce to your superior ability and experience at doing so. Evidently you know exactly the type work I am talking about and have seen, directly experienced and been involved with much more than I have along these lines.

I'm sure you are not just saying you can hold a deck of cards in your hands with some type work on it, whatever that work may be and whatever its intensity and saying, "Oh, I can see that."
Smile
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Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

A quick visit to your local drugstore, and the ladies make-up counter could lead to many interesting discoveries, as could hunting down anything associated with antiseptic dyes.

Just remember to minimize any involvement with alcohol in your experiments - denatured or otherwise. Seek other vehicles that don't dissolve the weak varnish on the backs of playing cards these days ... things like glycerin.

Experimentation might lead you someplace interesting.


Good points here and some experimentation can save you some money. You will learn more and perhaps come up with a better product that you can buy online.
Last Laugh
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Thanks to all, this is very very helpful. I'll definitely do some experimenting.



Slim, is this your site?

www.slimcardco.com
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slim23
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Hi,

Yes, it is.

Cheers,

Slim
Last Laugh
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Cool - I've heard great things.
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JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

At the professional level, this stuff is much harder to master than any "gambling" move you can think of and this level of mastery is beyond the reach of most.


I think you're out of your mind. A great false shuffle sequence takes many months at the soonest. A great second deal takes a year or two to master. A bottom deal can easily take several years to master at the soonest. Reading very light shade, juice, white flash, or any other type of visible marking system may take several months, but doesn't take years. Does it require lots of practice? Yes. Does it take years and years? No.
Jason


LOL. Well it seems that you and my psychiatrist are in complete agreement regarding my sanity.

However, I have been doing this for most of my life and false shuffles, second dealing and the like in general did not take very long to learn to master and use effectively. They are not that hard to do. Timing and grift sense are much more important than superb mastery, except perhaps for demonstrators. Once one learns a bottom, second or say pull-through or strip out, the variations on these themes all follow pretty easily to master and apply thereafter. Actually, moves have always been pretty easy for me to learn, comparatively speaking. Applying them effectively takes some time, of course, but that is different than mastery of the moves.

However, I'm sure you are much more knowledgeable and capable than I at reading top paper effectively and undetectably under fire, and getting the money with it, so I acquiesce to your superior ability and experience at doing so. Evidently you know exactly the type work I am talking about and have seen, directly experienced and been involved with much more than I have along these lines.

I'm sure you are not just saying you can hold a deck of cards in your hands with some type work on it, whatever that work may be and whatever its intensity and saying, "Oh, I can see that."
Smile


Cag,

Your first paragraph is fine. Moves come easy to you. No problem with that. (They came fairly easy to me too if the truth be told.)

Your second and third paragraphs are where you devolved into nonsense. Whether I'm able to read paper as well as you has nothing to do with your claim that reading difficult paper takes longer to master than the most difficult sleight of hand techniques. Paper is tough to read for most people, no question about it. Takes weeks to read strong stuff quickly. Takes a few months to read good stuff quickly. May even take up to a year to read really light work quickly and accurately. But now we're at a year. These aren't just my experiences, (though they WERE my experiences), this is confirmed by just about everyone I've ever talked to that made money using paper in and out of casinos. It's hard. "Very hard" might even accurately describe it. But not as hard as the most difficult sleight of hand techniques, at least for most people.

Let's poll the audience and ask them how their bottom deals looked after a year? How many of you think you had "mastered" the bottom deal after a year?

If paper was harder for you than moves, that's fine. I can't (and wouldn't) argue against that.

But you made a blanket statement that reading "top paper" is more difficult to master than a move that takes 5 or 6 years for most people. That's just nonsense.

You wanna back your claim off a bit and just state that reading paper is extremely difficult and time consuming, fine. No problem.

As for your last sentence: Absolutely not. Reading paper is actually pretty tough for me. I'm on the slow end when it comes to being able to see most very light shade. But if you gave me a series of 10 decks with gradually decreasing amounts of work ending with what you consider "top paper" I'm willing to bet I'm reading the tough stuff long before someone can master a bottom deal.

Wanna put your money where your mouth is and send me some decks? Of course, you'd have to remove your foot from your mouth first.

You and I get along just fine here. You're not wrong often. But this time you are. Take it like a man.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Cagliostro
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On Oct 11, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Cag,

Your first paragraph is fine. Moves come easy to you. No problem with that. (They came fairly easy to me too if the truth be told.)

Your second and third paragraphs are where you devolved into nonsense. Whether I'm able to read paper as well as you has nothing to do with your claim that reading difficult paper takes longer to master than the most difficult sleight of hand techniques.


Your point is well taken but one has to be able to do both at a high level to make the comparison. I was simply questioning how well you could actually read what I was referring to and under what conditions.

Quote:
Paper is tough to read for most people, no question about it. Takes weeks to read strong stuff quickly. Takes a few months to read good stuff quickly. May even take up to a year to read really light work quickly and accurately. But now we're at a year. These aren't just my experiences, (though they WERE my experiences), this is confirmed by just about everyone I've ever talked to that made money using paper in and out of casinos. It's hard. "Very hard" might even accurately describe it. But not as hard as the most difficult sleight of hand techniques, at least for most people.


Not as hard as most difficult sleight of hand techniques is "where I believe you devolve into nonsense." LOL. (By the way, I like that quote, so I am borrowing it from you...sort of looking down from a "higher authority," possessing "absolute truth" or having an "all knowing perspective." Takes me back to college level Philosophy 101?)

However, saying it takes years to master a bottom deal belongs more in advertising copy to sell a teaching DVD or seminar to newbies rather that for the truly experienced and knowledgeable. A stretch way too far...

I can only relate to my experience with these things as well as teaching a few people from time to time to work with me as part of team. I have no experience dealing with a myriad of people, (hobbyist, newbies, demonstrators, etc.), from different backgrounds, many of whom have never even gambled at any type of professional level, and selling them teaching videos to learn common gambling demo type manipulations. In fact, I can't even relate to that nor have any desire to do so.

However, you mention the bottom deal and allude to its great difficulty. To be sure, it is not an easy move but you have got to be kidding here. I learned the Erdnase Bottom deal when I was 14 or 15 years of age. Took about one month to deal it very deceptively in front of my mother's 3-way cosmetic mirror. Also, the rest of Erdnase was pretty much of a breeze: the riffle and overhand false shuffles, false cuts, stacking with the overhand shuffle, one and two hand hops (passes) and 3-card monte. Yes, it took some practice but it is not all that hard. Of course, I was practicing the piano for 2 hours a day, running scales, learning Beethoven, Chopin and so on and I found sleight of hand with cards pretty easy by comparison. But of course, maybe that is just me.

Also, there are also two levels of mastery which are related but different. There is the technical, demo level of mastery (which the vast majority of card table men are learning and performing), and the application level of mastery which almost none attempt or can do effectively. They are related but definitely not the same. The fact they are not the same seems to be a mystery to many who try to learn this stuff on a non-hustling level and profess that since they can do their moves so well they can get the money if they wanted to. Yea, right!

When I talk about reading paper, I am talking about doing so under fire. For example, one of the great difficulties is reading the top card in hand held BJ games, either single or double deck. The dealer is not holding the cards stationary, he is moving his hand continually and also "protecting" the deck by "neck tying" it. That is a lot different that just looking at a card lying on the table or holding it in one's hand. Technically speaking, even mucking would be a much easier move that reading paper under those conditions.

In poker games, as the cards are being dealt around the table, how many important cards can be identified on the fly just before players pick up their hands...and keep in mind mistakes in reading can cost a LOT of money. If is not fun and games at this level. (Of course, poker is handled differently than BJ and the technique of reading the cards is more of a team effort here, unless playing shorthanded.)

However, in my opinion reading top paper is beyond the reach of most card table enthusiasts, and that is assuming they even know what type paper I am talking about. In fact, most card table enthusiasts don't even attempt to do so, and if they try to read regular pager on some level, they are usually experimenting with amateurish easy to read products they bought on the internet.

It doesn't take years to master the moves you are talking about, bottoms, seconds, false shuffles and the like. Not even close. I can deal from a number of different bottom deal grips at this point and each one took only slight practice after mastering one main method. I have trained a couple of people who have to learn moves to work as part of a team and it did not take very long to learn the necessary manipulative moves for private games back in the day and also for casino games more recently. Of course, they had some experience around gambling and had grift sense. Having some degree of grift sense is mandatory. I also taught a few BJ dealers to do pull throughs under fire on casino BJ games. It took about 2 weeks to be very good at doing so, and without missing on the pull. They had fairly good hands and were handing cards every day. This was also before cameras were put in but my experience is most manipulation is not that difficult to learn. How and when to employ it is more important and the key in my opinion.

For example, when I first moved to Vegas, there was a downtown joint (The Silver Palace) that was busting out on the BJ and craps games. I use to watch the dealers that were moving, mostly flopping the deck and doing peek and pull. They were okay but not great. It was their demeanor, their personality and timing that made the moves work, not virtuoso skill. This has also been my experience in the private game arena. An experienced hustler with good grift sense and a mediocre bottom deal will get the money in spots where a virtuoso bottom dealer without that experience will not, assuming he can even deal the cards in that scenario without soiling himself.

Years to learn a bottom deal? Well I guess that depends on the person and how dedicated he is and if he is learning the right technique from the get-go. As I said, that statement plays better in ad copy, not the world I live in. Further, bottoms are pretty useless nowadays in professional games and have been so for several years. They are more for the hobbyist and demo set. Second dealing still has applications. Depends on the game and situation. I think someone with the right technique and a good teacher, working a couple of hours per day can master a strike second and a mechanics grip bottom in about one month, assuming he has some gambling experience and has handled cards. Now for people who don't come from that background, inexperienced hobbyists and demonstrators, I don't know. It might take some forever.

However, once again, in a game it does not take virtuoso manipulative skill to get the money. Most of the time an experienced hustler will not move if he is being "gunned" closely. He will simply wait for the scrutiny to pass or move on to another game. However, it DOES take considerable skill to read top paper without making a lot of mistakes. That has been my experience at the professional level of play.

Quote:
Let's poll the audience and ask them how their bottom deals looked after a year? How many of you think you had "mastered" the bottom deal after a year?


That would be meaningless to me. There are a too many unknowns and variables on that type "poll" with the people who would respond.

Quote:
But you made a blanket statement that reading "top paper" is more difficult to master than a move that takes 5 or 6 years for most people. That's just nonsense.


I don't know why you are coming up with this foolishness. No disrespect meant but I would think you should know better. I can't conceive of spending 5 or 6 years to master a move, any move, as explained above. To quote you, I think THAT is complete nonsense and is a monumental stretch of hyperbole. If it takes someone that long to master a move, any move, then maybe card manipulation is not their forte (no pun intended).

Quote:
Wanna put your money where your mouth is and send me some decks? Of course, you'd have to remove your foot from your mouth first.

You and I get along just fine here. You're not wrong often. But this time you are. Take it like a man.


Well, I sure you would absolutely love to see some of my decks but you already know that is not going to happen for obvious reasons. I don't know you personally and you are too well known to be part of any plays.

However, take my foot out of my mouth??? Put my money where my mouth is??? Take it like a man??? Funny! Now that is the way to give compelling and convincing argumentation. Also, I like your new "macho assertive demeanor." Smile

However, quite frankly I find it difficult to think you believe some of the things your are saying and writing with a straight face. But whatever...
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Oh I see.

When you say "master" paper, you mean read it under fire, under any conditions, with 100% accuracy and never let on that you're doing it. But when you say "master" bottom dealing, you mean "just get the *** thing off the bottom."

Gotcha.

Now we agree.

J

PS: What do you mean you don't know me? I know you. Sorry I missed your birthday last month. The 9th was it? Happy 81st.
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Peterson
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Here you go - https://www.strawpoll.me/16637356

Check in back once in a while to see new submissions.

(Obviously we are talking about the move in isolation, it would be hard to do a poll with 2 people who did it under fire.)
Cagliostro
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On Oct 12, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

When you say "master" paper, you mean read it under fire, under any conditions, with 100% accuracy and never let on that you're doing it. But when you say "master" bottom dealing, you mean "just get the *** thing off the bottom."

Gotcha.

Now we agree.


Well I'm glad we finally agree on something. Smile
Cagliostro
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On Oct 12, 2018, Peterson wrote:

Here you go - https://www.strawpoll.me/16637356


I like that. Now we can finally get definitive answers to this most vexing question. Smile
Bobbycash
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Cag,
I have to admit I’ve only played with some forms of paper and I can definitely see where you are coming from, however I have to say that after many years of practicing false deals I find it difficult to believe the time frame you’ve outlined for learning/applying that sleight under fire. I must admit other grips for deals do come much quicker now.
Cagliostro
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@bBobbycash: As in most accomplishment, individual abilities and aptitudes vary. Also starting out with good techniques can minimized the learning curve considerably. However, several years to master a bottom deal is beyond my comprehension.
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