The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Deckless! » » Elmsley count with pinch grip in *neither* hand? (to avoid injury) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
PaulPosition
View Profile
New user
46 Posts

Profile of PaulPosition
Well, in that Jerx video, the one big difference is he's not taking three (bottom) cards from the dealing hand and counting them back in, he's taking four card into the 'new' dealing hand and then counting four cards from it. A solution to a problem I didn't know exist, seeing as I always (mis?)read the instruction that way (from Mentzer's Counts Cuts & Subtleties, mostly).

Ie, the solution to the u-turn is to time-misdirect by doing a three-point turn.

That does nothing for your pain, though... :/
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Interesting comments, Paul. I'm glad you pointed out that difference in the Jerx video, which slipped by me. I'll look at it again. "Three-point turn!" -- that's pretty funny. There's a lot to be said for misreading -- you're the third magician here (that I know of!!) who improved a handling by misreading.




As for pain, Claudio kindly put up some videos showing how he does the count. Instead of the pinch-grip, he has a nice relaxed grip with his thumb on top of the packet, and (some of?) his other fingers *extended* underneath. I think I can solve the problem by using what he showed me, possibly in combination with some of the other ideas and videos that people have mentioned.



A huge help -- thank you so much, everybody.



Bob
stickmondoo
View Profile
Loyal user
256 Posts

Profile of stickmondoo
In his Penguin lecture Howard Hamburg teaches the Veeser concept. It does the same thing as an elmsley count but without the pinch grip.
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Quote:
On Dec 8, 2018, Bob G wrote:
Hi Warren,


[...]
I'm one of those people who find the first move of the now-standard method for the EC confusing. It seems like you're going to count in one direction and then you end up counting in the other. [...]
Bob


Bob,
I learnt the "now std handling" from Card College 2. Before that I used to use other handlings.
Well, when I read Giobbi's instructions and looked at the drawings, I was convinced that the images had been (by mistake) printed the other way round!
When I realized it was not so, it took me a week (not exaggerating) to get used to counting legitimately four cards from one hand to the other, using that description. Really: before even trying to perform the EC, I just did that, several times a day for a week. When I eventually got used to it, I started practising the actual false display...

Mark
mlippo
View Profile
Inner circle
Trieste (Italy)
1007 Posts

Profile of mlippo
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2018, Claudio wrote:
Hi Bob,
[...]

More often than not the EC is not used to explicitly count the cards (1,2,3,4) but to display them while implicitly counting them. [...]


Exactly! Claudio is absolutely right on this. And it does make a difference from a psychological point of view, both yours and your spectators' ...
You're just showing that all the cards have blue backs, or that they are all blank on the face except for one joker and so on ...

At least that's what I think

Mark
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi Mark,


Claudio is right about most things -- actually *everything* that he's said to me, at least -- so I'm sure you're right too. Smile Since I haven't yet mastered the sleight, I can't judge for myself, but I'll keep this advice in mind (about display vs. count) when I start performing tricks with the EC.



I tried to practice the legitimate display the way you did, and got tangled up. Definitely worth trying again, though. The good news is that the book I mentioned (I *think* in this thread) by Ian Kendall, Basic Training, breaks sleights down in wonderfully excruciating detail -- even more than Giobbi does -- and Kendall covers the EC in his first chapter. I'm making lots of progress by following his instructions.



Also, I'm finding that I'm not hurting my wrists and forearms -- partly because of Claudio's video that showed his relaxed pinch-grip, and partly because I started taking seriously everyone's advice about holding the cards with a light touch.



Nice to hear that I'm not the only one who was confused about that seeming change in direction! I gradually have become comfortable with it -- it doesn't look like a change in direction if you're careful about when and in which direction you move your forearms. (Obviously you know that -- I'm just happy to have figured it out.) In the scheme of things, a week isn't long at all to figure out a new sleight. Very funny that you thought the pictures were reversed. This is an example of what a friend of mine says: "Virtue is its own punishment." If you hadn't been so good about looking that the pictures carefully, they wouldn't have confused you!


Thanks,


Bob
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Stickmondoo,


I just noticed your post about the Veeser concept. Thanks for the tip. I haven't tried the VC, but I've always wondered whether there were situations where VC would be better than EC or vice versa. In his "Counts..." book, Jerry Mentzer seems to imply, in the section on the VC, that there *are* such situations, but I can't imagine what they'd be. Perhaps you can enlighten me?



Two advantages I can see to the VC are that (1) it would be less likely than the EC to aggravate my tendinitis (although I *think* I have that solved, as I described to Mark), and (2) in tricks that used both the EC and the Hamman count, there wouldn't be a discrepancy between the way the packets are held in the two counts.


One last question: Does Howard Hamburg teach the VC in more detail than Mentzer does? If so, I might spring for the Hamburg lecture. If not, I might not -- all too easy to spend lots of money on magic!


Thanks,


Bob
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi again, Stickmondoo,



I have a guess (and I'm sure lots of people know the answer to this) that there's an important difference between the Elmsley and Veeser counts: the final arrangement of the four cards is different. I was in a hurry, so I may have made a mistake, but here's what I found.



Say we start with a packet of four cards, all face-up, in the order A-2-3-4 from the face of the packet (i. e., the Ace is the card we can see when we hold the packet face-up).



By the end of the Elmsley count, we arrive at the order A-4-2-3.



With a quick reading, I wasn't able to follow Mentzer's description of the Veeser count. So I don't know what the final order is.



In his Countthesaurus, Racherbaumer gives a completely different use of the VC, using an eight-card packet. He also says that there are lots of variations, but doesn't elaborate.



So I'm guessing that the two counts aren't interchangeable. But I could easily be wrong. Smile



Any ideas, folks?



Bob
IanKendall
View Profile
Special user
Edinburgh
566 Posts

Profile of IanKendall
Bob,

It's very pleasing to read that you are making progress using my instructions for the Ghost Count. I've only had time to scan this thread, but by now you probably have realised that there should be no tension at all in the holding hand; even if you only take that from my lesson it should help with your pain.

Feel free to get in touch if you need any other pointers. I'm rarely on here these days, so email is best.

Take care, Ian
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi Ian,



I'm delighted to hear from you. I've bookmarked nearly every chapter in your book and am looking forward to working on the French Drop, Hamman Count, etc., once I've mastered the Elmsley Count. I also read your message on another thread, about your reasons for handling the EC the way you do as of about 15 years ago. I do have some questions, and will contact you by email.




Congratulations on a book that not only goes into sleights in the detail they require, with excellent accompanying photos, but which also helps students slowly build their way up to each sleight, so that they're not trying to learn everything about a given sleight at once.




Best wishes,



Bob
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Just a follow-up for those interested: I'm making rapid progress in learning the handling that Ian describes in his book. He starts in LH dealer's grip and then counts the cards from right hand to back into left hand, but I've come to agree with the people who said that that isn't a problem. If done smoothly, with all the motion to the left and never to the right, it's quite clear, IMO, that the all cards are being counted or displayed, so spectators are convinced they've seen all the cards passing them like all the cars of a freight train.



And the great thing is, my tendinitis isn't flaring up. I think there's something misleading about the term "pinch grip" (though I don't have a better suggestion) -- the term implies that one is clutching the cards very tightly. But in fact, as I think Ian suggested above, only a very light touch is required.



Thanks for all the help, folks.



Bob
scottvraneshfallin
View Profile
New user
Las Vegas, NV
58 Posts

Profile of scottvraneshfallin
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2019, Bob G wrote:
And the great thing is, my tendinitis isn't flaring up. I think there's something misleading about the term "pinch grip" (though I don't have a better suggestion) -- the term implies that one is clutching the cards very tightly. But in fact, as I think Ian suggested above, only a very light touch is required.


I just came across your post and wanted to thank you for it. I, too, have been working on my Elmsley and Jordan Counts and I, too, was taking the term "pinch grip" a bit too literally. I eased up and things are moving along more easily now. Thanks and I'm glad your hands are feeling better!
Bob G
View Profile
Inner circle
1372 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi scottvraneshfallin,



It was really sweet of you to write. I'm glad the thread was helpful to you.



Best Regards,


Bob
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Deckless! » » Elmsley count with pinch grip in *neither* hand? (to avoid injury) (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.26 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL