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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Good Thinking on the Chinking (15 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mb217
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Man, this is pretty interesting, and quite magical...

*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Mano
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On Dec 1, 2018, Mb217 wrote:
Man, this is pretty interesting, and quite magical...



Not bad, just too much dragging. I remember Tony Chang criticizing Joe Rindfleisch’s takes on the chink and chink stuff. Boy was he right! and I agreed back then, and these days even more. To me, there is no magic if the hands are dragging the surface/mat.
HeronsHorse
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On Dec 5, 2018, Mano wrote:
Not bad, just too much dragging. I remember Tony Chang criticizing Joe Rindfleisch’s takes on the chink and chink stuff. Boy was he right! and I agreed back then, and these days even more. To me, there is no magic if the hands are dragging the surface/mat.


I could not agree more. I feel I'm still a bit of a layman despite knowing a lot of card and coin work. I've not even tried any matrix so I feel I can view it like any layman as I don't know how it is done. I'm not dumb of course I can work some of them out. Anyway, I think you're spot on.
If the hands aren't seen to be hovering over the mat then I straight away think they are moving the objects by dragging under the hand. And Im sure more than one book has told me - if the first guess by the spectator is the correct guess, well, that is not a good thing.
I don't like it.
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Those who think that magic consists of doing tricks are strangers to magic. Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained."
- S.H. Sharpe
funsway
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There is so much to like about using mixed objects instead of four identical ones, but I think this approach is "trying too hard." Too much skill demo and not enough astonishment.
Way too fact with no time for the audience to catch up, or provide a foundation for "better things."

For decades I have allowed spectators to select an object from a mixed pile/basket for me to perform with - with very positive engagement results --
and have occasionally had the objects unaccountably shift around and change places. But never as a structured routine out of fear of revealing method,
or creating a pattern of actions to be later regretted.

So, it might be worth getting this to add "methods" to one's arsenal, but never to present it as a stand alone routine. I could see dumping the objects
and demonstrating that they and I have magic as my intent. The, when have focused attention and an expectation of magic to occur, I would shift to effects using the objects singly
or in pairs in the spectator's hands.

For example, the half dollar and Chinese coin can be a C/S transpo in their hands. Many key gimmicks available to switch in.

Alternately, I could see starting with for identical objects such as half dollars and have them, one by one, morph into different objects (magic in control rather then me)
Then, with me at a loss as to how to continue, I could do this routine effectively as I allow the objects to "do their own thing." Now, the objections noted above would be of less concern
since magic has been established first, and the door closed on most suspicions. Audience engagement with an expectation of magic always works.

Just musing at 3:00AM. Glad that Mb posted this.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Bill Hegbli
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Sorry, that is not magic, but camera trickery. Worthless, in my opinion. The guy can't talk it seems like as well. No one can follow this and be entertained. Murphy Magic should be ashamed of putting something like this out. Terrible Video, and not one real spectator.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

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HeronsHorse
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On Dec 30, 2018, Bill Hegbli wrote:
Sorry, that is not magic, but camera trickery. Worthless, in my opinion. The guy can't talk it seems like as well. No one can follow this and be entertained. Murphy Magic should be ashamed of putting something like this out. Terrible Video, and not one real spectator.

That's a good point -I forgot to add- that you mentioned there, Bill. The promo was so fast I had no clue what I was supposed to be watching! I'm sure I missed half of what I was supposed to be impressed by. I would never want to produce anything like that myself..too fast, too confusing!
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Those who think that magic consists of doing tricks are strangers to magic. Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained."
- S.H. Sharpe
Mb217
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A lot of interesting views here... Smile

Another view from another worker, perhaps not as elaborate but the basics are there...*Specifically, take a look at about the 1:00 mark here...Hmmmmm. 🤔

*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
funsway
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MagicIan (sadly deceased) had a Matrix Routine using coins from four different countries. He never published it -- feeling that only magicians
would appreciate the unique handling. He strived for simplicity in all routines and claimed a lay spectator was lost in most Matrix and 3Fly presentations.
Having them keep track of different object is just another level of confusion.

Not sure I completely agree. Just saying ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Zauberman
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I actually REALLY like this idea. I believe it actually makes the matrix more magical and interesting. Thanx for posting/bringing to our attention MB Smile

There's a lovely routine in Bobo's Coin Magic that uses 3 half dollars & 1 English penny (shell and double facer. Recommend you lot check it out. It's good). I always found having a different coin added to the effect. Having 4 different objects, from what I see, makes it much more visual.

As for the sliding of the hands......viewed as a magician, it may seem pretty obvious. But I done this literally thousands of times as a worker, and trust me, the audience isn't thinking that way unless you are doing it blatantly technically wrong.

The vid has inspired me to grab some different objects and see what I can come up with. I mean, isn't that what makes the art of magic so great. To work on new & different concepts that may or may not work. Small details on the path to perfection Smile
John Long
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I found Dill's presentation (including speaking) to better misdirect me than original video.

John
funsway
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Musing during the night ...

it is possible that all coin routines suffer a bit these days because folks today are unfamiliar with the objects used. (Yes, that can be an advantage too).

Here, some of the objects are more familiar to an observer as to weight and feel and "natural."

Does this add to the charm or power of a routine such as Matrix? Is the speed of action less an objection with familiar objects?
Would using borrowed objects enhance the appeal even more? Would performing other magic effects (before or after) with these objects enhance the magic experience?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Mb217
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I posted Dean Dill's more original takes on this sort of effect to show that it's been done before, perhaps just not as elaborately, stylishly, progressively even. To speak of "dragging" coins etc., well, that's about exactly what Dean was doing too, truth be told. Now, I suppose to some it depends on whose doing what, so perhaps Dean garners more silent respect than does the more silent newer worker here, but they are doing the same things really, and pretty much with the same things as it were. I notice that a lot of foreign magicians might not patter as much or speak at all as to the magic they do, maybe it's just a cultural thing, I don't know? Johnny Wong just snaps his fingers as to the magic. Smile Perhaps it just depends on whose doing what. I know American magicians like patter in their effects and in their instructions. I can & try to appreciate both styles of bringing the magic across.

To be fair, the DVD or download for "Elements" is very well done and shows some exceptional thinking and creative ability. There's actually a lot more magic to it, and the technique is quite good. It all appears very magical to me as coins (or a variety of elements) go from here to there and all over the place. Smile I believe if Dean were here to see this progression of some of his relative ideas, he would be quite impressed. Unlike how Al Schneider feels that nothing can compare to his original Matrix..NOTHING! Smile I don't think Dean would look at this chink-a-chink advancement and see less or nothing much at all...I just don't believe it. It's sorta like being the first in your family to earn a bachelors degree, and then turning-up your nose somewhat to your little brother eventually achieving Ph.D status in the same discipline, or something like that. Smile Anyway, Dean was a very different kind of guy, just a wonderful, easy-going guy as well as an exceptional magician.

But to each his own and I respect the many views here pro & con. Actually, both views are necessary as people keep working hard to move forward in the art, and actually to move forward in just about anything. Smile

Happy New Years everybody...Good Will Towards Men Smile 🎉
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Dollarbill
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I like it. My guess is that if you were a layman and saw the "essentials" performed, your jaw would hit the floor. Just my $.02 cents.

My favorite hand dragging effect has to be this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vU528OVTsmU


So fresh and so clean, clean! 👍👈🏻

Thanks Mb
Mano
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On Dec 31, 2018, Dollarbill wrote:
I like it. My guess is that if you were a layman and saw the "essentials" performed, your jaw would hit the floor. Just my $.02 cents.

My favorite hand dragging effect has to be this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vU528OVTsmU


So fresh and so clean, clean! 👍👈🏻

Thanks Mb



Mott-Sun!, Pure magic my friend !.
Bob G
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Hi everybody,


I'm hitching a ride here! This is a really interesting discussion. For someone like me who's never done this kind of thing, am I right in thinking that matrix routines are easier than chink-a-chink? And can someone recommend a routine, whether matrix or c-a-c, that would be good for a beginner to try? (I'm not a total beginner; have been working on cards, mostly, for a couple of years, but nothing with coins. So I'm not a total beginner, but I certainly wouldn't call myself intermediate.)


Thanks,


Bob
Michael Rubinstein
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Al Schneider's original matrix is the best way to go. Go to his website, you can see his demo and I think you can purchase his download. All other routines and based on the original.
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
Zauberman
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On Jan 2, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Hi everybody,
I'm hitching a ride here! This is a really interesting discussion. For someone like me who's never done this kind of thing, am I right in thinking that matrix routines are easier than chink-a-chink? And can someone recommend a routine, whether matrix or c-a-c, that would be good for a beginner to try? (I'm not a total beginner; have been working on cards, mostly, for a couple of years, but nothing with coins. So I'm not a total beginner, but I certainly wouldn't call myself intermediate.)
Thanks,"
Bob


Many libraries have the book, "Houdini on Magic" by Water Gibson. In it there is "4 Coin Assembly" around page 163+. This is one of the simplest and best coin assemblies you really should learn. No gaffs, extra coins, etc. Learn this, you use it for the rest of your life....and then if you want to go on to different versions, it'll be a lot easier. Note: the book is on Google preview but unfortunately doesn't go to the required page.
Bob G
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Michael and Zauberman,



Many thanks for your quick and helpful responses. I've downloaded Schneider's routine -- I really like Schneider because he doesn't just show how to do a trick; he also explains exactly why he makes the moves in the way he does (and often his thinking seems, to my untutored mind, quite original). I also discovered that the Houdini/Gibson book is indeed in the library of the college where I teach. That surprised me, but I guess Houdini is an important enough figure that someone in the fifties decided that we should have the book. Hard to argue against a trick by Houdini! -- and the price is right.


I'm excited about studying these tricks, and I'll continue to follow this thread with interest.


There's an interesting historical question here. Al Schneider is known as the inventor of Matrix, but Houdini already had a four-coin assembly much earlier. So why doesn't Houdini (or someone else even earlier) get the credit? I don't expect an answer to this, because there are some differences in the two tricks (e. g., Houdini uses a handkerchief and Schneider doesn't), and I haven't taken the time yet to watch the whole download or read Houdini's work. So I won't ask anyone to do my homework for me!


Thanks again,


Bob
Ray Haining
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I believe it is the title "Matrix" that is original with Al Schneider, not the idea of a "coin assembly." "Matrix" is what Schneider called his particular approach, with his own original moves, to the coin assembly idea. Magicians loved the title so much, now every coin assembly is referred to as a matrix.
Michael Rubinstein
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Al let me know that his Matrix is available as a free booklet on his site, www.worldmagiccenter.com . A lot of other great stuff there as well. Stop by and take a look!
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
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