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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Well, sure, (playing the opposite of "devil's" advocate, which is?...) we can raise the level of abstraction and talk about the beginnings of the "visual objects across" effect. But the obvious question then is, where do we stop? Certainly an earlier example of a "visual object across" at a further level of abstraction, is the old stage effect where the flowerpot visually jumps from one table to another. (or was it a table lamp, or both? And didn't Blackstone also do this with caged canaries?)
While this analysis is interesting, it is not quite germane to the discussion, which has turned towards the origination of a coin plot, nor is that really the object of the original poster's inquiry. Sure you can argue that the thimble effect is a small, in-the-hands instantaneous transposition, whereas the flowerpot trick is a stage effect, but once you're willing to draw lines, there's no reason why one could not just as well differentiate between thimbles and coins, is there? An IP attorney (which Thomas is, and I am hardly) will suggest that we look to the original claim. I don't think Jonathan is suggesting that he originated the concept of all instantaneous transpositions. His concept claims several nuances, but it is undeniably a coin effect. Rather than leave this discussion with an unanswered question, I'll tell you what I do know. In similar debates in trademark and copyright areas, one helpful test is to ask whether an ordinary observer would most likely mistake one routine for the other. If not, then the one cannot be said to be a "copy" of the other. Thomas can fill in the shortcomings of that description, or perhaps he already has, in the upcoming article. So, would an audience confuse the Rosini thimble routine for VCA? Are they so close that most practitioners would not perform the routines in the same set? Are these the same question? I leave the answers to you. My hope is to introduce more useful questions, rather than to foist my answers upon you. From my own experience, I can say that the Rosini routine does create the illusion of a visible transit, closed fingers notwithstanding. I say this as someone who uses the routine professionally, and was lucky enough to see it performed properly by people who have mastered it. I have also used both routines in the same show, sometimes back-to-back. (although I was not using Jonathan's routine exactly) I'll keep my findings to myself for the time being, though, as promised. I can say that from what I've seen, Jonathan is right, the thimble routine does require movement of the hands, lest the method become transparent. Most of our readers will not know this, but Jonathan's VCA does not. So, I invite this discussion to continue. While I would usually be loathe to derail a thread in this way, the original question can be quickly and simply answered through the use of a search, as can the roots of this discussion.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Ollie1235 Special user England 533 Posts |
Hi again ,
to change my original question , what is a good dvd or video to learn a visual coins across (for example 3-fly) I'm not particually bothered about a dvd or video full of different coin sleights so if there are any videos or dvds that concentrate particuarly on visual coins across then that would be better in my defence all of the few visual coins across's ive seen on mvd and that have been called 3-fly sorry about it anyway ollie |
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1039 Posts |
Way to hang in there Ollie!
Sorry I cannot answer your question but I did find this thread informative and fascinating. Is there anybody out there that help Ollie?
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
Ollie,
Check out dvd's by Reed McClintock...he has several versions of the effect in question. On a side note...has either of these gentleman (Victor or Houdin) put out any dvd's....Ok, I'm just kidding....stop throwing stuff at me already !!! Mike |
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Mike Wild Inner circle NY, PA, TX, MA, FL, NC 1290 Posts |
Garret Thomas has a nice, customizable, gimmicked version of VCA on "Any Questions". It's a quick and simple variation, but I think it's a very practical and "do-able" routine. It is most certainly easy to do, and allows for a ton of interaction with the spectators.
Additionally, Garret has some very interesting and enlightening advice and thoughts, which he shares on the video. Best, Mike |
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Doug Conn Loyal user 212 Posts |
Re: "While this analysis is interesting, it is not quite germane to the discussion"
Good point... Note: I was responding to Johnathon's inquiry: "Have you tried taking the VCA premise and using a small set of multiplying billiards instead of coins?" My point being: If the "premise" predates coins... Then, it's incorrect to suggest the "VCA" should be applied to other objects (that's what my 'devil' was 'advocating') To answer Ollie's question: Gary Kurtz' "Creating Magic" (video) has Gary's wonderful handling of this plot (many leave Kurtz out of these discussions... odd... bccause his M.O. was the first to see print: see "Trio" in "Unexplainable Acts".) alright, my 2cents is SPENT... |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The fact of Gary using a secret technique of Geoff Latta's suffices to demonstrate his being 'influenced' by the things that were going in NY at the time.
The fortunate few who were around Tannen's in those years would know I liked the candles and billiards and thought the hand to hand transportation effect looked very good with those props. The routine was even tried with a set of Fakini balls. Very nice props, just not a fan of things that get very dirty when kept loose in your pocket. I do hope everyone understands that I was working at using sleight of hand to duplicate the magical moments in some nice mechanical tricks like copenetro and blasted.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I imagine I'll be accused of stealing when I release 3 Fry-my cast Iron skillets across routine.
Anyone have the please of seeing Mickey Silver's Spit Fly? The man is a creative genius!!!!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Mickey's material looks quite good live and close up.
Whatever you find useful for the 'Across' effect is your own concern.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Ollie,
Getting back to your original question - I took a list that I posted before and updated for some of the more recent offerings. Here is the most common list: The DVDs I know of that have the routine are: Paul Wilson's "Knock Em' Dead" Troy Hooser’s “Total Destruction” series. Reed McClintock’s “Coin Ovations” and “Coin Patriot” If you don't want to limit yourself to DVD, here are the most common sources available for the routine: Chris Kenner's “Menage Et Trios” or “Threefly” from "Totally Out of Control" book or "Magic Man Examiner Vol. 1." magazine respectively. Paul Wilson's “Crowded Coins” from his video or DVD "Knock Em' Dead" or from his web manuscript. Troy Hooser's “Redirection Coins Across”, “Three Fly Simplified”, “3 Fly One”, “3 Fly Two” from his "Destroyer's" book and "Total Destruction" DVDs. Doug Brewer’s “Three Across the Fly” from his book "The Unexpected Visitor". Curtis Kam's from "Palms of Steel 1" as part of his “Silver Circle” routine. Daryl's manuscript "3 Fly III" Gary Kurtz' from his book "Unexplainable Acts" and video "Creating Magic" as part of his “Trio” and “Misty Like a Dream” routines respectively. Bob Kohler's “Ultimate 3 Fly” which comes with the coin set and video – probably DVD in the future. David Neighbors' "Super Fly" from his Japan Lecture Notes Mike Rubinstein’s “Retro Fly” from his Coinvention Lecture Notes. Kainoa Harbottle’s “Another Flipping Three Fly” from his “Coins on Edge” manuscript. Reed McClintock’s “Scream Fly” from his “Coin Ovations” DVD and “Freedom Flight” from “The Coin Patriot” DVD. Garrett Thomas’ “GT 3-Fly” from his video “Any Questions?” Of course we also have the long awaited work from Jon Townsend which will bring us full circle with the original VCA (not called 3 Fly) - but this is not available yet. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Don't forget Nate Kranzo's brilliant International 3-Fly ( famous 3 Fly plot using 3 different coins ) from his Out Of The Box DVD.
It uses three different coins and looks like real magic.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Nate may have been the first to publish a version of the VCA using dissimilar coins, however:
1) Reed McClintock has a claim on that 2) It is a natural extension of the copper/silver/brass routine. The very idea that this sort of thing would not have been explored by the creator of the trick is a bit incredible. Funny thing is if folks looked around the café at the 3fly and VCA titled threads, they would find NEW ideas and even some methods. Reed has some impressive handlings in his booklets/DVDs AND two additional versions of the trick that will likely surprise most people aside from looking magical.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I do remember Reed and Nate having a bit of a feud over this. I'm sure Reed's is a sight to behold, although I haven't seen it. I can tell you Nate's is quite a shocker.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I hope the feud about that is over. I am pleased that folks are exploring the idea.
Proper crediting will become apparent when some old routines are published later. What makes this situation odd is that the basic premise was not intended to get around or into print, so folks are kind of building on sand.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Marc DeSouza also independently came up with an International 3 fly routine he described to me a while before Nate or Reed published theirs.
Marc's is unpublished but uses a completely different method than Reeds or Nates, and is quite deceptive. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Nate's (or anyone that does it)use of 3 different coins is quite startling. I think 3 different coins really sells the effect.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The performer sells the effect. The performer is also responsible for communicating the basic premise and motivation for the effect through words, actions, props etc. The fact that they are all coins or mixed objects is irrelevant.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
That's true about the performer selling the effect. I guess I was just wowed when I saw Nate's version.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
As Curtis said:
"In similar debates in trademark and copyright areas, one helpful test is to ask whether an ordinary observer would most likely mistake one routine for the other. If not, then the one cannot be said to be a "copy" of the other" That provides a very good point. Until Jon's routine is published (or if), then how can you really have full cause to impugn Kenner. Once it is made available or Kenner presents his case for scrutiny and comparison, only then can anyone who was not involved in direct events surrounding the alleged theft can justifiably pass judgement on the actions of the various parties. The presentation of both sides of a conflict is the fundamental basis for modern law for a very good reason. Until then, I for one will be maintaining the status quo and calling the theme by its original and widely accepted genre title - Three Fly.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Actually, my routine was published and in its first write up, protected by copyright back in 1987. It was distributed privately to a few people, one of whom is Curtis Kam. The NY gang had seen this routine as its parts were assembled since 1977.
Citing credits on ideas and sleights became common in the mid 1970s. If you have purchased a modern work without a history or credits on the moves... you have likely purchased stolen ideas and work. The lack of credits for all the new moves and ideas in the cited publicly available published works SHOULD have alerted the astute reader to the problem. Failing this, the facile reader becomes part of the problem in magic regarding secrets and intellectual property. Propagating these secrets which have not been released by their inventor also also makes it impossible for all exposed to the ideas, to enjoy the experience that so moved Chris Kenner and Bob Kohler. Quite a loss if you ask me.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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