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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sexually objectifying female spectators and assistants (36 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicalaurie
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Danny, please don't tell me how to be.
I do not have to copy your style to be valid in conversation. Your questions are answered in the points I quoted, which is why I quoted them. I don't expect others to simply take my word for things. It is relevant to share and reference supporting information.

Senor,

"The current guidance gives no advice on prioritising different groups of passengers. There must be adapted life boats for people with mobility impairments, not including babies or toddlers, but they are otherwise not prioritised in the evacuation process. The idea is that the procedures should allow all people to leave the boat safely."

"https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/jan/16/costa-concordia-women"
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dannydoyle
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So you don't have any thoughts of your own, you just want to rant. Got it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
So you don't have any thoughts of your own, you just want to rant. Got it.


And you just want to criticize and argue. I think she was responsive, but that's me.

You're one of the more well-known agitators on this forum. I'm not sure your style is free from criticism, either. Nor mine, nor any of ours. How about we all post in good faith and leave other's style to them.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 23, 2018, Wendy Wylde wrote:
There are many reasons why there are so few women in magic, but I felt most were beyond the scope of this conversation. However, Melinda and what she presented as "The First Lady of Magic" is definitely part of why women are objectified as sex objects in magic: if women magicians, big name women magicians, present themselves AS sex objects then it shouldn't be super surprising that people take that as a cue to objectify them...

If women want to be taken seriously in magic, they we are going to have to take OURSELVES seriously as magicians. And we must understand that what we do, each of us as an individual woman magician, is representing a larger group. There are so few female magicians in the world that opinions are based on the few that people see.

That is a big responsibility and to be honest, women are just barely starting to step up to it. It is easier to be sexy and suggestive on stage than to learn to do a trick well. Either will make money. Either will get you attention. One is just a lot harder than the other. There are a lot of young women magicians today, maybe more than there have ever been, and the ones I know seem to be trucking along just fine (with their clothes on, even) Smile . So instead of going on about how horrible male magicians are, why not focus instead on encouraging these new women magicians? This happens through women standing behind each other. Empowering each other. Letting each other know that they don't have to play dumb, or be cute. They don't have to dress like an assistant to get people to look at them...


This is a great quote. And it is what we do in the WMA, thank goodness. I have a couple caveats to your point, though.

First is that what you say is for discussions by women, between women, for women. Women need to say this to each other. I'm not sure this forum, vastly male, is the right audience or right group to discuss it productively.

Second is that it's a complex discussion, because on the one hand you're absolutely correct for the larger picture, yet in the meantime women need to do what they need to do to get booked. It's sort of a chicken and egg problem that runs afoul of practical difficulties. I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, but I had a producer of a magic show say to me, "Why would I hire two female magicians for the same show? I wouldn't do that, any more than I would hire two jugglers. Women are a novelty act. I'll hire one, and it will be the prettiest one." Yikes! I can't believe that was said to me in 2017. Yet, that kind of mentality is still out there. So, people gotta put food on the table, so they do what they have to, and sometimes that means sexing it up. Then there is the subset of women who, for whatever reason, go out of their way to make themselves sex objects, which frankly ****es me off, though they have every right to do so.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 27, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
So you don't have any thoughts of your own, you just want to rant. Got it.


And you just want to criticize and argue. I think she was responsive, but that's me.

You're one of the more well-known agitators on this forum. I'm not sure your style is free from criticism, either. Nor mine, nor any of ours. How about we all post in good faith and leave other's style to them.

Right. YOU call me an agitator, while in this VERY THREAD you accuse people of things and then claim it is not about assigning blame. Then you ignore it when called on it. You use sarcasm and nastiness and when called on it you don't step up to admit it.

Yep I am the agitator. Just because we don't lay down for your dictations of male behavior. Go figure.

So how about you define "post in good faith" for us? So us terrible men know how to avoid being responsible for the atrocities committed against women of magic for the past 100 years.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 23, 2018, Wendy Wylde wrote:
There are many reasons why there are so few women in magic, but I felt most were beyond the scope of this conversation. However, Melinda and what she presented as "The First Lady of Magic" is definitely part of why women are objectified as sex objects in magic: if women magicians, big name women magicians, present themselves AS sex objects then it shouldn't be super surprising that people take that as a cue to objectify them...

If women want to be taken seriously in magic, they we are going to have to take OURSELVES seriously as magicians. And we must understand that what we do, each of us as an individual woman magician, is representing a larger group. There are so few female magicians in the world that opinions are based on the few that people see.

That is a big responsibility and to be honest, women are just barely starting to step up to it. It is easier to be sexy and suggestive on stage than to learn to do a trick well. Either will make money. Either will get you attention. One is just a lot harder than the other. There are a lot of young women magicians today, maybe more than there have ever been, and the ones I know seem to be trucking along just fine (with their clothes on, even) Smile . So instead of going on about how horrible male magicians are, why not focus instead on encouraging these new women magicians? This happens through women standing behind each other. Empowering each other. Letting each other know that they don't have to play dumb, or be cute. They don't have to dress like an assistant to get people to look at them...


This is a great quote. And it is what we do in the WMA, thank goodness. I have a couple caveats to your point, though.

First is that what you say is for discussions by women, between women, for women. Women need to say this to each other. I'm not sure this forum, vastly male, is the right audience or right group to discuss it productively.

Second is that it's a complex discussion, because on the one hand you're absolutely correct for the larger picture, yet in the meantime women need to do what they need to do to get booked. It's sort of a chicken and egg problem that runs afoul of practical difficulties. I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, but I had a producer of a magic show say to me, "Why would I hire two female magicians for the same show? I wouldn't do that, any more than I would hire two jugglers. Women are a novelty act. I'll hire one, and it will be the prettiest one." Yikes! I can't believe that was said to me in 2017. Yet, that kind of mentality is still out there. So, people gotta put food on the table, so they do what they have to, and sometimes that means sexing it up. Then there is the subset of women who, for whatever reason, go out of their way to make themselves sex objects, which frankly ****es me off, though they have every right to do so.


We all have to live in the world as it is. This will not change no matter how angry you get at it. Yes one producer said that he hires the prettiest woman. So what? The VAST majority of producers out there hire the act that will make them the most money. Ugly, not ugly the one who earns the most money gets the job. This is how it works in the real world of people doing real work for real money full time. I have NEVER once heard a producer (Of which I deal with dozens in many aspects of ENTERTAINMENT, not just magic.) be willing to make less money just so he can hire the better looking female act. This is anecdotal evidence that you have, and that is a thing. But it is not as common as you seem to think.

One problem you seem to be missing is that not all acts are created equal. Not all women, or all men are qualified to do a job. It is possible, whether you want to admit it or not, that the female act might just not be as good as the male act. It can be and quite often IS that simple. THEN when a female act instead of stepping up her game decides to make themselves a sex object it does not help them or the cause you want to champion. I think that the idea somehow the solution to getting booked requires men to think differently is simply self defeating.

You do not produce shows. You deal with a very limited number of producers of any gender. OK no problem. But you can not universalize your experience and paint that mentality as prevalent. It simply is not the prevailing thinking. Trust me when I tell you that producers who do this on any real level do so in order to make money. I personally produce shows I don't even much like because the audience does and they make money. It is that simple.

Here is the thing. It happens to EVERY full time performer of EVERY sort. You reach a plateau. Your show is "busy" but not booked as much as you want or on a level that you believe it should be. SOMETHING has to be done. Producers give you an excuse that you just don't buy as to why they are not using you and using this other act. You have to change things to get further than you are. It is at this point that quite often women think that the move to the "sex object" is a good idea. It is a poor choice. Often it is just a matter of waiting for your experience to kick in. But it happens to men as well as women. It is often the point at which a choice has to be made.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2018, magicalaurie wrote:

Senor,

"The current guidance gives no advice on prioritising different groups of passengers. There must be adapted life boats for people with mobility impairments, not including babies or toddlers, but they are otherwise not prioritised in the evacuation process. The idea is that the procedures should allow all people to leave the boat safely."

"https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/jan/16/costa-concordia-women"


Those may be the guidelines but in terms of implantation, we all know how it works.

But the lifeboat thing aside, why is it wrong for women to choose for themselves what they want in life. IF? a woman wants to be scantly clad in an outfit helping a male magicians, so be it. How many of these assistants are the wives, of popular performers? I think in those circumstances it's just BOTH male and female doing their part to support the family. As a person who once body graded Mick Jagger and his then wife Jerry Hall, I can tell you that she wasn't cooking or cleaning anything. He had his music career and she her modeling career. Would you have said that because her husband was a musician, that somehow her chosen profession, was sexists? It's an inane argument.

Choice ladies and gentlemen. That's what equalizes the sexes in the workplace, more than anything else. CHOICE!
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 29, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:

Choice ladies and gentlemen. That's what equalizes the sexes in the workplace, more than anything else. CHOICE!


A great summary. Short and makes the point perfectly.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Melies
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I think the problem with any online forum of this kind is that it prevents the kind of human-to-human exchange that can lead to genuine understanding, and to the "Aha!" moment when people on different sides of an issue can find common ground. But this conversation is particularly maddening, because one side in the debate continually appeals not to reason or fact, but to common, ugly prejudice, while meanwhile closing itself to any counter-factual historical or sociological piece of evidence that doesn't jibe with its proponents' preexisting biases.

It is quite striking to me how quickly this thread has devolved into blaming *women* for the fact that they are treated as subordinates in society--including in the magic community. Yeah, and it was the fault of Africans to allow themselves to be sold into slavery, and it was the fault of gays that they had their heads smashed in by cops and were driven to suicide in the pre-Stonewall period, and it was the fault of the Jews that the Nazis rounded them up and sent them to points East, etc. etc. The reason I started this thread was merely to say that we in this community, both men and women, yes, but particularly men, have a responsibility to change our sexist culture and to make it more inclusive and more in line with basic principles of equity and justice. And look what a firestorm that modest proposal ignited!

There seem to me two main problems with this "debate." The first is that the men participating in it fundamentally don't seem to respect women, and therefore cannot tolerate anyone who shines a light on regressive attitudes they simply take for granted, finding it just too threatening to examine their own beliefs or to question the status quo of society at large. The second, which is an outcrop of the first, is that the people engaging in this discussion have either never been exposed to feminist thought or have simply never bothered to read any of it. Yet Simone de Beauvoir wrote "The Second Sex" way back in 1949, and since then there have been literally thousands of other books on the subject, not one of which, I am sure, has been read by most of the people who have weighed in on this subject. How odd is that? Imagine someone who had never studied engineering or math, say, and who didn't know the difference between Newton and Olivia Newton John, who nevertheless went online and began pontificating about the best way to build bridges or spaceships. How could anyone who actually was an engineer, and knew something about the subject, have a conversation with them about anything engineering-related? Meanwhile, our Know-Nothing continues to pontificate as a Know It All. Of *course* one can build a jet engine out of brittle materials ("sexual objectification is in the eye of the beholder"), of *course* bridges can be built without thought being given to structural frequency ("women have only themselves to blame if someone is insulting them or discriminating against them"), of *course* computers can run on orange juice ("women are as much to blame as men for sexism"), etc. But the self-made "expert" knows better than the one who really knows. And the man doesn't need to listen to, or learn from, the woman's experiences or perspective, because he knows in advance of every possible fact that he is right.

None of the following lines of argument, all of them repeated here by different people, stands critical scrutiny: (1) sexual objectification is a matter of personal taste or judgment, not a social phenomenon that disadvantages one sex more than another; (2) the fact that some women allow themselves to be made into pin-ups or models or porn stars, etc., to please straight men, is evidence that women as a class consent to such behavior--and furthemore are not (as a class) disadvantaged by it; (3) social change is impossible, and even undesirable; (4) how one is treated by others is a matter of personal choice, not a matter of social power; (5) whatever "the market" tolerates or encourages, i.e. whatever leads to profit-taking, is morally acceptable or appropriate; (6) there is no systemic discrimination against women in our society, no sexism, and therefore no problem.

But continuing to argue publicly with persons who are not operating in good faith, and who clearly don't give a *** about matters of justice, does seem tragically pointless.
Dannydoyle
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Nobody can have a debate when you only want to make accusations and blanket statements.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Tom Cutts
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On Dec 29, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Nobody can have a debate when you only want to make accusations and blanket statements.

Those who wield double edged swords tend to only see one of those two edges.
Jonathan Townsend
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Tragically pointless... talking down from an ivory tower to people who work in a craft. And isn't it nice that they aren't snapping back at you about academia? So far your credentials seem more bookish than about bookings. Danny, Laurie and Dana are your potential allies in this matter.

Is our current literature really that gender biased? Some facts would help there for use of he/she/volunteer/they/your spectator... Do we really ignore the engaging and talented magicians who don't flirt with gender norms? Sure, let's highlight our craft above base beauty contests.

Good call on an awkward moment in the cheese routine. Let's see if he does that moment in with other volunteers. And if it's only women maybe a short note to the guy might handle that.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Senor Fabuloso
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Melies, are you just trying to be provocative or do you really believe your BS? Who here doesn't respect women? Who here is "blaming women" for ANYTHING other than their own choices in life? And it's not even really "blaming" as much as it's an acknowledgment of a woman's right to choose. You really need to learn to read and read to learn. Did you not read a woman's perspective (thank you again Wendy) validating much of what the men here have said?

If you knew anything about history you would know that it's true that "Yeah, and it was the fault of Africans to allow themselves to be sold into slavery" and that in FACT, some cannibalistic African tribes helped the so called white man to enslave people from other Waring tribes. So while again the strawman argument you make is ridiculous, it really does show your ignorance to history.

Be that as it may, so called social justice is nothing more than a totalitarian attempt at a politically correct society that tries to limit speech. and your constant accusations about people you don't know is a glaring illustration, of why it's wrong.

Finally a MAN is only as good as his word and earlier in this thread, you said you were "done here". Having not kept your word, I can't take anything you say seriously.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Aus
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Melies I think you need to widen your gaze a little mate. Aside from magic as a past time, I have an interest in gender politics and I'm alarmed at what I see in the broader political sphere. Apart from the old chestnuts of misogyny, bigotry and ignorance, I feel there is a real sense of scepticism and fear of any positive movement for equality for women due to malicious acts that have been perpetrated under the banner of equality and women's rights, and the reason for that, in my opinion, is feminism.

Now I know what feminism is meant to stand for, but like all social movements, I tend to judge them empirically rather than by dictionary definitions. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

There is a toxic form of victim feminism that holds that all men are all brutes and men are the totality of women's problems (the patriarchy) and women are helpless victims, it's fainting couch feminism and I don't think it does women any good. I think it's very retrograde and I think it's turning back 100 years of feminism that said women were meant to be strong and equal.

Now before someone says it isn't the mainstream representation of feminism, I would beg to differ. I believe it to be the loudest form and it's the most prominent form.

Now do all feminists think this way? No, I don't think all feminists think this way but I do think the reigning paradigm of the feminism you see in the media that you read about is this creeping insidious attack of males and masculinity.

We have seen cases of this with the weaponisation of #metoo in the Brett Kavanaugh hearings for political motivations, Aziz Ansari the comedian who I can best describe as a victim of nothing more than a bad date. The fears of sexual misconduct and false allegations and the lack of strict lines of what is and isn't acceptable in the corporate world have meant the alienation of women in wall street and the implementation of the Mike Pence rule by men in an effort to mitigate risk to themselves.

Now I have been accused on this thread and in others that I don't listen to women and their issues and that I should shut up and do so. We tried that with the "believe all women" mantra the feminist hordes sprouted out during the #metoo campaign, and look where that got us. The blind benefit of the doubt that empowered women to make men lose their jobs, their current and future education prospects along with their political reputations in the court of the public opinion without any substantiated proof or presumption of innocence.

Now, why do I say all this?

Because I want to make CLEAR that my opposition to this isn't because of misogyny, bigotry and willful ignorance but for me at least a compelling sense of distrust that I have on women's rights activism. You have one hell of a high bar to prove to me that your motivations are genuine, and you have feminism to thank for it.

Magically

Aus
magicalaurie
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In my opinion, you've bypassed the very real issue here, Aus. I don't like "isms", generally, because I feel they tend to be divisive rather than inclusive. But having acknowledged the true definition of the term "feminism", where do you suppose it sprang from? For you to decide all women are disingenuous is to treat sincere women as unfairly as sincere men have been treated by those leaping to fear and hate instead of understanding and compassion.

I don't think Kainoa Harbottle is or was hateful.

In fact, I consider him a friend.
But for him to say something that completely negated my very existence, as though if I hadn't been present it would be completely normal to say. As if it was completely normal for grown men to be discussing that magicalaurie was some guy hiding behind a picture of Laurie Telgen at the Magic Café. As if it was impossible magicalaurie could just be magicalaurie.

I'm real. I've been treated as though I don't exist by more than one man on this forum and in ways that I've allowed to hurt me immensely.

My mother was in labour for two and a half days giving birth to my twin sister (who's also been accused of not being real by male members here) and I. My mother, my sister, and I, almost all died in that childbirth. My sister and I were 2 1/2 months premature but were very fortunate that the neonatal ward had just opened at CHEO and we were transferred there. I have a family who cares about me, I care about life, I'm here to live it, and some guy who can't see I'm real even in posted videos gets to decide I don't actually exist? And that doesn't leave me at a disadvantage among the "brotherhood"?

I spent money I don't have to go to this seminar to meet someone who matters deeply to my life and I'm met with this. I don't even exist among his "friends". These things matter. It's not a small thing to completely negate someone this way and I can only wonder why anyone would feel a need to do so to anyone. One thing I know is it is based in fear.

Image
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dannydoyle
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Have toy ever been treated as if you don't exist by a woman? Indeed most men have.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Senor Fabuloso
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Laurie, could it have been that so enamored by you, that the men who SEEMED to be denying your existence, were just fascinated by meeting you? Online personas are often lies and when they met you, it could have just been astonishment, that a dynamic individual like yourself was in fact real. From personal experience, I can tell you that often, things are not how they appear. But of course you know that, being a magician Smile
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
landmark
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Quote:
Is our current literature really that gender biased? Some facts would help there for use of he/she/volunteer/they/your spectator... Do we really ignore the engaging and talented magicians who don't flirt with gender norms? Sure, let's highlight our craft above base beauty contests.


I think the record pretty much shows that magic is one of the lagging arts when it comes to innovation--including the social, political, and artistic standpoints. Things within magic are changing, but slowly, probably substantially slower than the general society at large. That understandably makes it difficult and frustrating for many.
Jonathan Townsend
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On Dec 30, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Is our current literature really that gender biased?...

I think the record pretty much shows that ...

Changing the topic that way is not going to work. Nor does claiming quaint nostalgia serve as excuse. How nice to forget everything which happened after 1900! ? Smile
So, about today's literature and what we are doing today... How are we doing?
Folks what do you see?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Changing the topic


? You have read the thread title, right?
And if you read my post as excusing anything, then I've either written poorly or you've misread me.

Quote:
So, about today's literature and what we are doing today... How are we doing?


Odd to ask that question, get a direct answer and then not have my answer acknowledged:

Quote:
Things within magic are changing, but slowly, probably substantially slower than the general society at large.
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