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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sexually objectifying female spectators and assistants (36 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Melies wrote:
Got to love it: challenging sexism in our community is now equivalent to Nazism. Done here.


You were not challenging sexism, you were making unsubstantiated claims. Do you even SEE the difference?

And it is such an admirable trait to have the inability to listen to any point of view that is not your own.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, danaruns wrote:

So, if I go to magician meetings where I am consistently and universally treated like dog doo, the problem is mine? The onus is on me?

Asking for a friend.


By telling you the truth, I am being your friend.

In the situation you describe, yes you are at fault because you continue going to that meeting. If? You truly are being treated badly, go to those in charge of the meeting and complain. If not, and all it is is your feelings, move on to another meeting. If there is no other meetings, start your own. There you can set the decorum rules and control what people say. Don't look for anything other than conformation bias in any controversy, as you will be in charge and those who don't conform, will be kicked out. You get to be as totalitarian, as you like.


This is why there are so few women in magic.

And yet, this will confound some of you.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, danaruns wrote:

This is why there are so few women in magic.



I won't pretend to talk for all women in magic like you do Dana but the women I have met in magic, are strong and resolved to succeed. They wouldn't let anything as small as men, stand in their way. I always saw you, as just such a woman. Was I wrong?
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, danaruns wrote:

This is why there are so few women in magic.



I won't pretend to talk for all women in magic like you do Dana but the women I have met in magic, are strong and resolved to succeed. They wouldn't let anything as small as men, stand in their way. I always saw you, as just such a woman. Was I wrong?


Allow me to repeat, with emphasis for clarity: This is why there are SO FEW WOMEN in magic.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Senor Fabuloso
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Not sure what your reiteration is suppose to mean but I'll just take your word for it, that I'm the cause of so few women in magic. Anything else you want to put on my shoulders? Maybe I'm responsible for all gender bias, if such a thing exists? Or perhaps race relations around the world is my fault to? How about income inequality, homophobia, ageism, and every other manner of supposed white privilege in existence? Never mind that I've served with every shape, color, creed, sexual orientation, I can think of, without ever feeling that my brothers and sitars in arms were any different than me and whom I would have laid down my life for. The arrogance of social justest warriors and antifa like bigots, makes me sick. Instead of talking, on an internet magic board about how victimized you all are, how about doing something about it? I sure have and do for you.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dannydoyle
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It seems to me as if you are speaking for a large number of women in and out of magic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Senor Fabuloso
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Sisters not sitars. It must have been the music in my head.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
It seems to me as if you are speaking for a large number of women in and out of magic.


I am. That is literally my job as a board member of the WMA.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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To speak for women not in the association? THAT is your job? Interesting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
To speak for women not in the association? THAT is your job? Interesting.


Yes, I find it interesting, too. And inspiring. And a good deal of work, and listening, and studying, and leading. It is sometimes dispiriting, occasionally elating, often satisfying, and always an important responsibility. I get to speak with hundreds of magicians, and women and girls who want to become magicians, I produce and participate in performances, I write, and the worst part of it is that I have to negotiate the politics, the prejudices, and the tremendous inertia of culture. Hopefully, it all helps.

Here's a link to the senior thesis by Angela Sanchez that actually led to the creation of the WMA, if you're interested. https://angelamsanchezdotcom.files.wordp......2013.pdf It's a wonderful jumping off point for the discussion of how women in magic have been treated for the last hundred or so years.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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And just how much of that hundred years is it that you want to seem to hold me personally responsible for?

And I don't care what you say, you do not speak for all women in or out of magic. No matter what title you want to claim.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dougini
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No Danny. I'm at fault too. Dana has quoted some of my quips and poor humor. But ya know? I'm effing SICK of this. Double standard? Ha! Some women are JUST as guilty. Fan the flames and cry VICTIM! In my 63 years I've seen a lot! Apparently, it ain't over. Hey, I'm banned from FaceBook! I am NOT PC nor will I ever be! I do not choose to offend, but I'll be D@MNED if I am going to cower and slink away because some WOMAN was offended! I had a woman boss once. I could write a BOOK about the BS I had to go through! Sexism, favorites, jealousy, and PMS! I wanted to kill myself. You wanna talk about SUPERIORITY? Good thing I crawled outta there in time. Yeah, we MALES are the problem. Right. I know a few women who would vehemently disagree. Women CAN be part of the problem as well. As this thread shows...

Doug
Dannydoyle
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Ummm errrr ummm. Yea I don't know what to do with that.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dougini
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Me, I just press on. I will continue to do what I do. We will always have those who are easily offended. And I, myself, am an EQUAL opportunity offender! I was banned from the Café for two months. I stayed away for a year and a half! Life's too short. While my hydraulics still work, I am HAPPY to sexually objectify females! And believe it or not, I know some that LIKE it! And I am rewarded with hugs! Violence and force I DO NOT CONDONE!

Now they've banned "Baby, It's Cold Outside"! This is where the dominoes start falling...where does this end up? Ya know, if I knew Dana and Melies personally, I'd probably like them! But reading these threads leaves a really bad taste in my mouth! I'd like to think I'm free to praise a magician woman's LEGS if I feel the need! Or her face. Or outfit. Without some feminist being OFFENDED! I mean, I COULD say, "Nice ASS!", but that has gotten me in trouble lately. So WHAT? Years ago, a gal walking behind me said that to ME! OH! I'm OFFENDED! Woooo!

Double standard. OK for YOU but NOT for ME! Pferd Sheiße!

Doug
Senor Fabuloso
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Here is the real problem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_F3zv-hAYs I truly dislike using Fox for anything but when they get it right, I will.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Psyfl
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If a woman willingly consents to taking on an assistant job in which they are "objectified" as you call it, what is the issue? I would not want to take their right away to do that, and a number of women enjoy such roles.

Right now women are generally able to get into magic just as easily as men are. I doubt any magic store is going to turn down a woman's money, and there are numerous successful women magicians who have performed at big events like Penn and Teller Fool Us, for instance.

However, the fact remains that there are many more men who are interested in being magicians than females, whereas females are more likely to take on assistant roles rather than men. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It is just the natural differences between men and women taking their course. To be honest I am sick of people trying to socially engineer the world with a sense of moral superiority, and I think this has led to an unfair demonisation of men in many cases. The MeToo movement, for instance, entailed many false/highly spurious allegations against men. Just my take.
Dougini
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Quote:
On Dec 22, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Here is the real problem (link)


OMG! Senor, that...whoa. Yeah. Houston, we have a problem...
Wendy Wylde
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So.... this isn't going to be popular post, and I apologize in advance to all the women who are about to declare me a traitor of kind, but here is another viewpoint from someone with the same "parts" as you.

I am a woman. I am a woman magician. I have performed professionally and (after being out of it for a while for dumb reasons) I plan to perform professionally again.

I have never been an assistant. I don't fit in boxes. I have never worn a g-string on stage (I would look like a pear with a rubber band wrapped around it. Not the look I like for myself). I do not do "sexy" magic and I never have. I am in a local magic club that is AWESOME. I'm not saying there aren't some snags (because any time you get a group of people together there will be personality conflicts of one kind or another), but for the most part they are all pretty great. Our oldest attending members are in their 80s I believe.

So here's the secret: If you want magicians to respect you - DO MAGIC BETTER. Fight for it like you are the 3rd monkey trying to get on the ark. Practice it like your life depends on it. That is what the really amazing guys in my local group do (and I daresay most really amazing professionals). If you don't have the time to practice and to be good, then you don't get to whine that they're treating you poorly based on your genitalia. I've seen them be mighty cruel to other male magicians who weren't any good too. It has nothing to do with gender.

Here's where it gets REALLY unpopular: If there is rampant sexism in the magic community it isn't the fault of the men. People treat you the way you LET them treat you. You know who hurts women in magic? Women magicians who dress like assistants. If you don't want to be treated like a sex object, if you do not want to see women objectified in magic, then empower and teach them to stop letting people treat them that way.

This is a picture of Melinda First Lady of Magic. http://www.rscotthooper.com/works/melinda_cycle.html In no way does that help women in magic. And in that image right there, in all of her TV specials with sparkly body suits and stiletto heels, she told the world THIS is what a female magician looks like. THAT has done more damage than any male magician objectifying his assistant. THAT was the image little girls grew up with as to what you had to look like to be a female magician.

And it's a mystery why there are so few women in magic? Melinda isn't the only one, she's just the quickest example I could come up with. Don't EVEN get me started on Ursula Martinez.

If you want to be treated like a magician then BE A MAGICIAN. Dress like yourself. Figure out YOUR character and YOUR magic and then DO IT, BE that. But understand that there are so few female magicians that you represent us ALL when you're on stage. So if you decide to perform in a g-string, that is your choice, but know that it reflects on us all and you are making the lives of other female magicians more difficult.

I have only had one person verbally abuse me because I was a woman doing magic - she was the wife of a magician.

It is so easy to blame this on the men, and comforting. Because acting like a grown up and learning how to actually do magic WELL is a lot harder.


tl;dr version - People will treat you the way you LET them treat you. If women in magic want respect then we need to tell each other to quit dressing like assistants who stole the magic wand and be FEMALE MAGICIANS, not strippers. The rest will follow. *shrug*
"Love is not all wine and roses.
Sometimes it's handcuffs and cheese."
- Tim Minchin
Dannydoyle
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I'm pretty sure that makes the point.

Let me just add this to make it even better.

OH WAIT... I CAN'T! That is about as good as it gets for an explanation.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicalaurie
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I daresay there's more to it. Otherwise, you're suggesting I was going around- dressed like a stripper, doing bad magic- when I was declared to be "not real". That just wasn't the case.

In fact, I was fully clothed, and spoke intelligently (I've been told).
That, I think, is what led to the astonishment at my realness.

Men have their own minds and can think for themselves, regardless of what Melinda told them.

Siegfried and Roy and The Amazing Kreskin, among others, have in the past referenced imagination.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
https://magicalaurieblog.wordpress.com/
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