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Ravenspur
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Granby, MA
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As a rank beginner (I'm still working on card handling), is it worth my time to work on a system for memorizing stacks?
Mr. Woolery
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If you want to do things that require or benefit from a memorized deck, yes, it is worth it.

If you only want to do card tricks, you might not want to put in the effort at this time.

Ultimately, what tricks do want to do? That tells you what skills you need.

But building your memory is always going to be a good thing. The Roth Memory course is available for free on Project Gutenberg. It may feel a little dated in presentation, but the content is timeless. There are loads of sites that teach mnemonic skills if you prefer to go that way.

Patrick
Harry Lorayne
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Ravenspur --- In most of my books (The Memory Book, Ageless Memory, and etc.,) I do a special section on card memorization. Used by literally tens of thousands all over the world.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Mr. Woolery
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I never told anyone to stay away from your work Harry. I just suggested free resources in an effort to be helpful, rather than to market products.

Patrick
Harry Lorayne
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Good enough. But quite often cheap is cheap. And as I've responded to your "suggestions" before, in other and previous threads - David Roth was a fan of mine (he died at 96) - would call me after any of my TV appearances and rave that there's no way he could do what he'd seen me do. And, so far as memorizing cards is concerned - and I'll wait for the screams about my ego - THERE IS NO BETTER WAY TO MEMORIZE CARDS than the method(s) I teach in my books - and that I've used for about 70+ decades.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

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The Burnaby Kid
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With regards to what you can accomplish, there are a few differences between a memorized deck and a regular (eg: Si Stebbins) stack. I'd personally recommend starting with something like a Si Stebbins setup and seeing if you like that general approach to card work. If you do, then you'll be really pleased with what a Memorized deck offers.

As for memorizing the stack itself, Juan Tamariz shares his approach in Mnemonica. If nothing else, it gives some insight into the sort of mind that can't stop playing invisible violins.
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Harry Lorayne
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So long as "regards to what you can accomplish" is mentioned --- I've said it, written it, hundreds of times and over the years --- you really want to impress - want to receive 100% of the effect, 100% of the "jaw dropping" from your audiences - do your stuff with THEIR decks. Then - you can't use a stacked deck. Of course, if you can memorize a deck "on the run" so to speak --- which is something I used decades ago and which I've written about often enough - fine. I don't find it necessary anymore. Why? Because I can do much stronger impromptu effects with a shuffled deck than I can do with a stacked deck.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

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The Burnaby Kid
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Ravenspur,

One thing that I should have mentioned earlier was that Simon Aronson really did a great job outlining what you can get from a memdeck.

http://simonaronson.com/Memories%20Are%2......This.pdf

I think, when you read down the list of features he describes that you can get out of a regular memorized deck, you'll be tempted to admit that there's some impressive magic there that really can't be done as cleanly using other methods.

Like, consider the following. You shuffle the deck and then set it down in front of the spectator, and from this point forward you touch nothing. They draw a large chunk of cards from the middle of the deck, look at the bottom-most one, then shuffle their packet and ribbon-spread it in front of you. You can find their card easily and are ready for a number of presentations. When you consider the handling that we usually need to do in order to get their card, this can be impressive stuff.

As I said earlier, though, you may want to consider checking out what you can do with a Si Stebbins deck first without committing to a memdeck. You'll be able to see the advantages and disadvantages quite easily. In my signature below is a free pdf that has a chapter on the subject, and if by some reason you want to break my heart and learn about it elsewhere, you can find plenty of free material on archive.org and lybrary.com, you monster.
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Senor Fabuloso
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Once again people can't see beyond their own frame of reference. Most of this is due to always looking for the, latest-greatest so called, NEW stuff. Mr. Lorayne's work has been critically acclaimed not only by magicians but the general public, as well. He is a living legend and the undisputed, ALL TIME memory expert living today. So his recommendations are sound.

Having said all that Harry might even admit to have started out with,
Si Stebbins
and The 8 Kings Stacks?

They are typically, the first stacks learned and provide a foundation, for many tricks written about in some of the older books. Books are where we find the best NEW stuff, never realized.
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Mr. Woolery
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There is a difference between a memorized stack and a memory demonstration. One is a tool for performing card magic, the other is showing what a trained brain can do. Harry has written more books than probably anyone else ever will on the subject of training the memory. No dispute.

However, the relevant thing isn’t his reputation or his many kind and generous contributions to the Café. The relevant thing is his suggestion that learning to use a borrowed deck is, in his experience, more powerful than what he could do with a memorized stack. That is a valuable point to consider.

There are certainly tricks that can’t be done without a memorized stack and my advice to consider whether those tricks are worth memorizing a deck to be able to do them is still valid advice. I don’t think Harry has ever claimed to be a more entertaining performer than Aronson. They approach card magic differently. Ravenspur May choose to learn a stack or follow Harry’s advice and save his brain space for more tricks from a randomized deck. For those who want to do what can only be done with a memdeck, it is well worth the effort. For those who feel that there’s plenty of good material out there that uses other methods, it isn’t worth doing.

Patrick
Senor Fabuloso
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I'd be interested to know what things can't be done with an ordinary deck, that can ONLY be done with a stacked deck?
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

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The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
I'd be interested to know what things can't be done with an ordinary deck, that can ONLY be done with a stacked deck?


Erm... "You shuffle the deck and then set it down in front of the spectator, and from this point forward you touch nothing. They draw a large chunk of cards from the middle of the deck, look at the bottom-most one, then shuffle their packet and ribbon-spread it in front of you. You can find their card easily and are ready for a number of presentations."

I can't think of a way to do this with a conventional deck. Well, except for that one time I did it, but I'm assuming people aren't going to be keen on sacrificing a goat just for one card trick.
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Chris
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I think memorizing a deck is certainly a good investment of your time if you are serious about performing card magic. If you want to learn what I consider the best way to memorize a deck of cards check out "Stack and System Maigret" by Danny Crauwels https://www.lybrary.com/the-stack-and-sy......175.html It is based on scientific insights how the mind works and remembers. Just as we keep improving moves, memory systems have been refined, too. Roth, Lorayne, etc. are all fine teachers of basic memory systems, but they are dated. You can also learn from memory champions such as Dominic O'Brien https://www.lybrary.com/dominic-obrien-m-91.html Also they have refined and optimized classic methods and ideas which date back to the Greeks and earlier.
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Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
I'd be interested to know what things can't be done with an ordinary deck, that can ONLY be done with a stacked deck?


Erm... "You shuffle the deck and then set it down in front of the spectator, and from this point forward you touch nothing. They draw a large chunk of cards from the middle of the deck, look at the bottom-most one, then shuffle their packet and ribbon-spread it in front of you. You can find their card easily and are ready for a number of presentations."

I can't think of a way to do this with a conventional deck. Well, except for that one time I did it, but I'm assuming people aren't going to be keen on sacrificing a goat just for one card trick.


I actually outlined a similar trick that actual can ALL be done in the participants hands, that is similar to what you described and doesn't use a stacked deck. Next...
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, Chris wrote:
I think memorizing a deck is certainly a good investment of your time if you are serious about performing card magic. If you want to learn what I consider the best way to memorize a deck of cards check out "Stack and System Maigret" by Danny Crauwels https://www.lybrary.com/the-stack-and-sy......175.html It is based on scientific insights how the mind works and remembers. Just as we keep improving moves, memory systems have been refined, too. Roth, Lorayne, etc. are all fine teachers of basic memory systems, but they are dated. You can also learn from memory champions such as Dominic O'Brien https://www.lybrary.com/dominic-obrien-m-91.html Also they have refined and optimized classic methods and ideas which date back to the Greeks and earlier.


Exactly the latest-greatest thinking, I was talking about in an earlier post.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Mr. Woolery
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Senor, there is a whole forum on the Café devoted to memdeck stuff. I bet the folks there could answer your questions about the value of knowing a stack.

Patrick
Senor Fabuloso
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Maybe? But since you made the claim, I'd like to hear it from you.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 19, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
I'd be interested to know what things can't be done with an ordinary deck, that can ONLY be done with a stacked deck?


Erm... "You shuffle the deck and then set it down in front of the spectator, and from this point forward you touch nothing. They draw a large chunk of cards from the middle of the deck, look at the bottom-most one, then shuffle their packet and ribbon-spread it in front of you. You can find their card easily and are ready for a number of presentations."

I can't think of a way to do this with a conventional deck. Well, except for that one time I did it, but I'm assuming people aren't going to be keen on sacrificing a goat just for one card trick.


I actually outlined a similar trick that actual can ALL be done in the participants hands, that is similar to what you described and doesn't use a stacked deck. Next...


I'd very much like to see where you outlined this trick! Is it elsewhere on the Café? Please... the lives of many goats are in your hands...
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Senor Fabuloso
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Look in the Inner Thoughts section.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
The Burnaby Kid
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Would this be the Utility Card Force thread?
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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