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Mr. Woolery
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Senor, Harry is very capable of defending himself if he feels slighted. As you can see from his very first post in this thread. Chris was the one who used the term “dated” for Harry’s methods, not I. And please notice that he also called Roth’s methods (my suggestion) dated. It isn’t an insult to anyone to learn a newer method, especially if it works better or faster.

Also, please notice (although I hate having to restate things in the same thread) that I never said Ravenspur should memorize a stack. I said it is worth doing only if one wishes to do what can only or best be done with that tool. If you asked me whether it is worth learning a pass, a back p*lm, or a c*ll, my answer is the same. You can do loads of tricks without those moves in your toolbox. But there are reasons for developing a move and certain things only work well with certain tools. A memdeck is a tool.

I suggested some free resources to be helpful. Chris suggested a couple of resources that are not free but are much more recent and offer aspects the free ones probably don’t.

Getting all hot and bothered because someone dared to suggest that the “living legend” of memory skills might not be the only available source of good mnemonic information is just a bit much, I think.

Patrick
Harry Lorayne
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My book, AGELESS MEMORY, is current - so "dated"? And THE MEMORY BOOK, published in 1973, still sells more, MUCH more, than any other book on the subject - in 11 languages (that I know of). Now, I'll wait for the screams about my ego - at 93 years of age, I really don't care; I care for/about the truth - so scream as you like.

Okay, truth? I've researched memory training for over SEVENTY YEARS. (If you go to memoryimprovement.org you'll read about some memory training books from centuries ago.) Always "researched" even more before finishing any one of my over-a-dozen books (and the MEMORY POWER COURSE) on the subject.

And in all those decades of research - I really doubt that anyone has researched it more. I have found no better, because THERE IS NO BETTER METHOD/TECHNIQUE/SYSTEM for memorizing cards than the method/technique/system taught in my books - including AGELESS MEMORY. In other simple-easy-to-understand words - NONE, no matter how "new," work "better or faster, Mr. Woolery. NONE than I've researched - and I "check 'em" all - why? Because I'm always willing to learn!! (Which, of course, is also true for memorizing ANYTHING.)

In the memorizing-card section in AGELESS MEMORY, besides teaching the basic method/technique/system, I also teach the "missing card stunt" with which I've made jaws drop for decades, all over the world. Dick Cavett is among the many thousands who use/perform it. It's an anytime, any deck, impromptu, fantastic card-memory demonstration.

Okay; got it off my mind; feel better now. Be very careful to whom you listen to, folks. Particularly anyone who calls my stuff - ANY OF MY STUFF - dated. (And now we can all breathlessly await the all-knowing responses, along with the "ego screams"!

Want to learn more about my books on memory training - or hey, even on magic? - easy, go to harryloraynemagic.com.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
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Harry Lorayne
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Thanks, Senor Fabuloso - just saw your post - which came in as I was "doing" mine.
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Senor Fabuloso
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Your very welcome Sir. I'm not sure that you would remember (pun intended) our having met in NYC at a particular restaurant on Bway, many years ago. But the meeting changed my thinking about magic and I will always, be grateful. Thank you.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Harry Lorayne
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You're more than welcome. (I didn't know you by the name Senor Fabuloso then, did I?)
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Ravenspur
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It looks like I've got some thinking to do. I will definitely check out Harry's work on memory. I got interested in memory some years ago when I read "Moonwalking with Einstein." I followed that up with some CDs by Dominic O'Brien, and soon learned there was more work involved than I thought. I'm ready for some of that work now. I did end up integrating pictures into my vocabulary instruction as a mnemonic aid. (I'm a high school English teacher).

I'll keep thinking about memorizing stacks. Truth be told, I'm nervous about learning slights and wanted to explore alternatives.
Harry Lorayne
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I find it difficult to understand how you could be interested in memory training and didn't know about me! You do have to start reading the good stuff!!
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Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2018, Harry Lorayne wrote:
You're more than welcome. (I didn't know you by the name Senor Fabuloso then, did I?)


No Mr. Lorayne but it was across the street from either 1540 Bway or 1450 Bway. My memory isn't what it used to be even with your help Smile
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Chris
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2018, Harry Lorayne wrote:
And THE MEMORY BOOK, published in 1973, still sells more, MUCH more, than any other book on the subject - in 11 languages (that I know of).

Sorry, but sales to the general public are not proof that something is any good. Lots of garbage is being sold in the millions. With this I do not mean that Harry's books are garbage. They are not. But quoting sales numbers is silly in a discussion about quality.

Quote:
On Dec 20, 2018, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Dick Cavett is among the many thousands who use/perform it.

You are dating yourself Harry. Dick Cavett? Are you kidding? His show is from the 70s and 80s. Do you think we all switched off our minds and haven't advanced memory systems since the 80s? As I wrote, there is nothing wrong with Roth or Lorayne. Many got their start with memory systems reading a book from those authors. But memory systems have been refined and improved since then.

Here is one point that most memory systems completely miss when it is applied to a memorized deck. Most memory systems are designed for the retention of LOTS of information for a relatively SHORT amount of time. However, the magician wants to remember one stack (only 52 cards and their locations) FOREVER. This is a different set of requirements to traditional memory aids and systems. The only system I am aware of that considers that important distinction is "The Stack and System Maigret" by Danny Crauwels https://www.lybrary.com/the-stack-and-sy......175.html
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Harry Lorayne
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I've written about this before, there are current politicians who use my systems all the time, but who've made me promise never to publicize it. If it was known that they all used Harry Lorayne's memory systems they'd never again be able to say "I don't remember" at senate hearing, or whatever.

Greg Kelly, son of the ex-police commissioner of NY, who had/has his own TV show - uses and demonstrates my systems all the time; his father uses my systems as does ex-mayor Mike Bloomberg. Enough - I really don't have to, want to, prove anything to people who have no idea as to what they're talking about.
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danaruns
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I just memorized this thread.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Harry Lorayne
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How-Chic-of-You.
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FlightRisk
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I have Harry's "Ageless Memory", but I forgot where I put it Smile
Mindpro
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I can honestly say that I am amazed at the disrespect for Harry here. Harry is legendary in the art and science of memory faaaar beyond a memorized stack. Unfortunately, Chris' sentiments about Harry's memory techniques is for short term memory is not just an opinion, but an incorrect one at that. Thousands of people and professionals have and continue to use Harry's systems and materials on a daily basis for longer than many of these guys have been alive.

It is amazing that these guys with absolutely no industry credibility choose to attack someone known as one of the foremost authorities on the topic of memory for the better part of a century! Then the fact alone that we have direct access to him and his knowledge and experience only to see the disrespect here is appalling.

This is a prime example of magicians not knowing when to shut up and listen rather than be talking and trying to go toe to toe with someone and something they know little or nothing about. I don't believe they would talk this way if speaking directly with Corinda, Anneman, Tarbell, etc. but they are towards Harry.

I must say I have lost some respect for these guys here due solely to his lack of respect towards Harry, being unable to separate fact from opinion, and not even realize the magnitude of the many huge names in the entertainment industry (including Dick Cavett, Johnny Carson and many others who too are legendary) that both consider Harry a peer, but also know him as the foremost authority on not just memory, but entertaining and amazing with memory.

This is a demonstration of the lack of respect from younger generations through the use on the internet. A great example of this at its worst.

Harry, it is not what these guys think or their opinions, its how the market and industry has spoken for seven decades and generations.

The right perspective is most important in proper learning and education.
Harry Lorayne
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Thank you, Mindpro. Appreciated. HL.
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HeronsHorse
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I was about to write something along those lines Mindpro. I commend you for doing so.
I absolutely agree with the last two posts.
People are so full of their own need to outdo, or be right, they have zero tolerance to other personalities and cannot show respect where it is due.
No time for it.
Paul
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Those who think that magic consists of doing tricks are strangers to magic. Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained."
- S.H. Sharpe
Mindpro
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I am and have always been a firm believer that there are different levels of performers and entertainers. They are not all equal. There is a range that begins with Casual Interest, Hobbyists & Enthusiasts, Amateurs, Semi-Professionals (for the sake of this discussion, although I don't believe this actually exists in reality), Local/Regional Professionals, National/Touring Professionals, Top Of Their Game Professionals, Top Of The Industry Professionals, and Legends who's work will last far longer their their own lifetime while making an impact on the industry.

With my own experience as an entertainer, producer, promoter, agent/broker and coach I have been fortunate to work with performers on all of these levels my whole career - there is a huge difference. While some may be delusional as to where they actually are in the chain, it pains me personally and damages the art and industry when guys (and gals) can't understand their actual level and respect this hierarchy, and offer the personal and professional respect that should be acknowledged and given.

Everyone must know their place and accept it. Once done, they should strive to always continue to learn, grown, improve and advance themselves to their next desired level or accept the level of which they are at if they choose not to advance.

I know this is a section for newbies and unfortunately so many just at this point are only interested in tricks and the mechanics of their interest, but it is just important to learn and understand the other business and non-performance/presentation aspects of the art and industry as well.
Chris
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Quote:
On Jan 17, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Unfortunately, Chris' sentiments about Harry's memory techniques is for short term memory is not just an opinion, but an incorrect one at that. Thousands of people and professionals have and continue to use Harry's systems and materials on a daily basis for longer than many of these guys have been alive.

You can use a screwdriver to 'hammer' in a nail, but it is much better and easier done with a hammer. If you work every day with your stack you do not need any memory system, because brute force is sufficient. Repeat it often enough and eventually you will have memorized it. If you keep using it frequently enough you will retain it. The mere fact that it can be done without any special system or tool does not mean that it cannot be done better and more effectively with an appropriate tool. All I have pointed out is that there are better tools and systems to memorize a deck of cards for the long term than Harry Lorayne has taught. Walking will get you from A to B, too, but I prefer to drive.
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Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jan 17, 2019, Chris wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 17, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Unfortunately, Chris' sentiments about Harry's memory techniques is for short term memory is not just an opinion, but an incorrect one at that. Thousands of people and professionals have and continue to use Harry's systems and materials on a daily basis for longer than many of these guys have been alive.

You can use a screwdriver to 'hammer' in a nail, but it is much better and easier done with a hammer. If you work every day with your stack you do not need any memory system, because brute force is sufficient. Repeat it often enough and eventually you will have memorized it. If you keep using it frequently enough you will retain it. The mere fact that it can be done without any special system or tool does not mean that it cannot be done better and more effectively with an appropriate tool. All I have pointed out is that there are better tools and systems to memorize a deck of cards for the long term than Harry Lorayne has taught. Walking will get you from A to B, too, but I prefer to drive.


What you are describing is nothing more than a rote system of doing something over and over again to eventually receive the desired results without, as you say, any memory system. Nothing wrong with that, but of course a memory system can make it much easier, more quickly, more helpful to many and can be retained permanently.

There's no problem with you wanting to drive, whether the best way or not, but there is no need to abolish someone for offering a better, more helpful, or different way.
Chris
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Quote:
On Jan 17, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
What you are describing is nothing more than a rote system of doing something over and over again to eventually receive the desired results without, as you say, any memory system. Nothing wrong with that, but of course a memory system can make it much easier, more quickly, more helpful to many and can be retained permanently.

In other words, you totally agree with what I said. You can memorize a deck without any system, but this will take more time. You can take one of the classic memory systems, like Harry is teaching, and that will make it easier. Or you can use a further refinement and improvement like the System Maigret and you will learn it even faster and retain it longer with less work than with one of the classic systems. To build on my analogy, it is like walking, cycling, and driving. All will get you from A to B, but driving is fastest. Nothing wrong with cycling, like Harry, just don't claim it is faster than driving. That is silly.
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