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simplymagicweb Inner circle Norfolk, UK 1591 Posts 
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Interesting. I have dry hands and so can’t perform part of his Mo Fly routine because of this. I suspect this therefore may be the same? Shame.
www.sgmagic.co.uk - magic for the real world
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markhitton Special user 964 Posts
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Not for me. bought but disappointed. 😪
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Stephon Johnson Special user Razorback Country 556 Posts
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I know the takuma ukawa retention. It looks like Chien’s I think the “get ready” grip looks unnatural (to me).
Steph
WHAT IF you wake up tomorrow with ONLY the things that you THANK GOD for today?
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Bande Elite user 468 Posts
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Why not for you Mark? Asking because I am on the fence about buying this. Deciding between this and Tresor that looks really interesting to me -- and French Drop something I can already do fairly well.
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts
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I picked up reTURNtion the other day. I haven't mastered it by any means, but I've played with it a little and can offer some preliminary opinions.
What I liked about the demo video (besides MM's winning smile, of course!) was the apparently zero finger movement in the false transfer (and barely any thumb movement either). I think this is indeed achievable with the move, if you do it really well. But even a sloppy job ought to compete with other methods for low finger movement. The angles are quite good, which I really appreicate. (As to the "burn" - I think that depends entirely on how you time the move versus what the taking hand does. Basic theory - and this lesson talks about that a little. I don't see any unusual problems with retention burn using this move, if you can learn to do it quickly and at the right moment.) I'd say the basic reTURNion moves take some getting used to, but at the same time, they feel sort of comfortable and efficient. I was able to get decent results in a mirror within an hour, though not consistently. I can imagine this becoming a very easy, familiar set of movements with practice. I do agree with the concerns about hand dryness/wetness. I think skin condition will make a big difference in this move. It actually has me wanting to try a bit of wax on my coins (at least until I get used to it). So if you already have trouble...let's say, moving coins around with gentle touches, this may not suit you. These moves also seem "tuned" to dollar-sized coins, for various reasons. I haven't experimented much yet, but so far I get the impression this technique would be noticeably more awkward and less useful with half-dollars, and largely inapplicable for coins smaller than that. Moritz's tips on big coins/small hands were helpful to me, but this is still a limitation to watch out for. On the other hand, the basic principle of the moves feels like the kind of thing you can probably adapt to your hands and coins to some extent. I've already found a few little adjustments and variations to the basic technique that may work for me, though I'm trying to learn the material "as written" too. I consider the reTURNtion techniques to be of intermediate skill level. I'd hesitate to recommend this for beginners - there are less knacky methods that look fine - but if you're comfortable with a few other false transfers and really want minimal finger movement, this is well worth a look. But it's the kind of thing where you may be dropping some coins before you master it. I can't decide if the 'production' verion of the reTURNtion move is harder or easier than the 'vanish' version. They're related but not exactly the same technique. Personally, I've always struggled with getting productions fast enough to look like the coin is 'popping' into the fingertips rather than just gliding comically into place. I feel like this move, for me, is a very promising approach: not impossibly difficult, and potentially quite snappy, with some control over how fast the coin appears and at what angle. The bonus vanish (via B.T.P.) looks too knacky for me. I'd call it an advanced move. Pretty clever, though. Maybe it's not as hard as it seems, if you work on it, but personally I'm not so fond of the effect that I'd bother. (If you already use B.T.P. comfortably, definitely check it out. It's neat.) The example routine is nice enough, and a good way to work on the moves - kinda reminds me of MB's old "Ike & Mike PMP". The perfomance tips were mostly not news to me, but it's good solid advice, and I did learn a few things. The video presentation itself was fine - not fancy or incredibly long, but clear and thorough. Overall, to me, this package was well worth the price of lunch. I'll have to work with these moves for a while to decide if they're really practical for me - I'm definitely a bit concerned about skin texture, coin size, etc. - but so far I'm pretty optimistic about making use of these techniques. They may not replace your own favorite methods, and they're probably not a good place for beginners to start out, but as another set of tools in the toolbox...I'm definitely glad I bought this. |
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts
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On Jan 19, 2019, Stephon Johnson wrote: Ugh, sorry to disagree, but I would NOT recommend learning from that penguinmagic video. You'd pick up some bad habits. I'd suggest checking out coinmagic.com for proper free instruction in the classic technique. I'd also recommend watching Al Schneider's lineup of ROV videos, and Tim Feher's old video on naturalness, before attempting to learn any particular ROV-type move. (Sorry, I don't have those links handy. Digging them up can be an exercise for the reader.) Before you get in front of the mirror, understand just how clean, smooth, and casual these moves can and should look. |
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markhitton Special user 964 Posts
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On Jan 24, 2019, Bande wrote: if you have dry or oiled skin the move could be not flowing enough and this ruins the sleight. in my case the coin movement is stopped. by dry fingers skin. i think the move is not for small. coins but perfect for morgan or medium. sixe coins. while I use regularly the ukawa methodnin any improptu scenario with moritz I have to use some stuff to apply on hand before. this stops me from learning the move better. on the other side people with oily skin can have the opposite issue. coin can turn faster and also drop. i pass on this one. not flexible method 
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1114 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 24, 2019, Dan Efran wrote: About the bonus section. MM explains a production from back thumb palm which, I have to say, has always been detailed in my own work, i.e Moneypulation vol.1 (2011). Not only did I explain this move, but I showed how to use it also as a change, for example in a spellbound routine, or to invisibly exchange a normal coin for a gaffed one. I will never understand what is the problem with crediting... Why is it so hard to acknowledge previous work ? Oh well... |
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts
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On Jan 25, 2019, Lawrens Godon wrote: Lawrens, personally I got the impression the bonus section was about the weird vanish to B.T.P. more than the production from B.T.P., but certainly you should have been credited for anything you've published. I haven't read your books, but from your videos it's clear you've explored this concealment more extensively than anyone else. |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts
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Not a worker for me. I agree with most of Mark's comments above. And it does use a lot of the same work as shown in Z's Blow Vanish video. I'm sticking with the classics that I use now!
Thanks! Jim |
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1114 Posts
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On Jan 26, 2019, Dan Efran wrote: Dan, I published a dvd "Moneypulation vol.1" in 2011. I explained that to properly place a coin in Back Thumb Palm, you need to lower the thumb and then drag the coin to position... The "original" part in MM bonus section is when he lets the coin falls backward on the side of the thumb (balance palm ?). Unfortunately, this move has already been published by my friend Ryutaro Masuo (Ryu-ka). I really think that one should do some research before publishing... |
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Dan Efran Regular user Pittsburgh, PA 150 Posts
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On Jan 30, 2019, Lawrens Godon wrote: I concur. Thank you for supplying the proper credits here. When things like this come up, it's nice that the Café's experts can connect the dots for us, so we get a better sense of the history of these moves and know where to look up the 'real work'. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9672 Posts
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I've enjoyed this string, not just for the magic but for the discussion that has led to even more here. Now, to me this is a teachable moment for Moritz. He is a wonderful young magician, quite talented and from a magical family I believe. Here, we have a real master of the craft in Lawrens, it would be a good time for the young man to perhaps take a moment of introduction with such a teacher. It seems like a good place to meet and talk, to learn and grow from real good soil as to coin magic, some of the best around bar none. Youngsters don't usually have the moxy, no matter how seemingly bright they appear to make first moves like this, because it takes more than just being smart or talented behind a super magnetic smile.
Perhaps the young man will get word of all this and raise his maturity a bit here to meet the challenge to step up his game, and reach beyond his magic & knowledge to that of Lawrens. I think he would find a lasting teacher and friend in the very art he loves. Something, someone worthwhile that would become a great part of his journey and an even greater part of his story one day. I truly hope it happens one day soon, because ultimately it would prove greater than the magic of any such vanish. Let sleight-of-hand work in an even bigger way this time around.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb 
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1114 Posts
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On Feb 1, 2019, Mb217 wrote: Thank you Marion. I was truly amazed the first time I watched Moritz doing his coin magic, he was so young and so talented. Then I didn't hear much about him, until recently. No hard feelings at all, it's just that I don't understand why the new generation doesn't mind to credit previous work... I think that history (ancient and recent) is totally a part of our art ; we are all connected, it's our duty to recognize this fact... Happy coin magic ! |
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Paco_de_la_Luz New user 4 Posts
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This is what Moritz Mueller has to say about this (posted on Instagram):
Proper Crediting is very important to me... Recently there has been a discussion on a magic forum in which it was said that “the new generation doesn’t mind to credit previous work”. As a member of this “new generation“ and someone addressed specifically I take issue with this statement. Crediting has always been hugely important to me. Well, proper crediting. In my new download there is a Bonus Section in which I teach a vanish into back thumb palm and briefly mention a production to get out of it. Lawrens Godon has now publicly claimed that he should have been credited for the production. I am aware of his work and I disagree. The production is something that countless coin magicians have done in the past and I never claimed ownership of it. That production is not mine nor is it his. It was most likely invented before either of us were born. I do not need to explicitly name him as a source just because his work is related to the same topic (back thumb palm). If there was anything new in his work that was relevant to what I teach in my download, I would have. Additionally, he claims that Ryu-Ka (one of my favorite coin magicians) invented and published the vanish. I immediately sent Ryutaro my download and asked if the tutorial contained anything he created (because – once again – proper crediting is important to me). As it turned out his vanish is different from mine. I always try and research such claims to make sure I am not overlooking anyone. I don’t think I have. |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts
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I don't think young Mr. Mueller's generation has anything to do with anything. Part of the problem of crediting is having access to and knowledge of all that has come before. There is just too much material out there for there not to be oversights now and then, even for the most conscientious.
What gives the retention vision vanish its power is a peculiarity of our visual perception. An image of the coin is retained even after the coin is no longer there. (You'll have to ask a scientist or doctor why this is so.) Spectators "see" the coin go into the hand. It has nothing to do with the motion--or lack of motion--of the fingers of the "putting" hand. Of course, we try to keep those to a minimum, but the main thing is the physical phenomenon of retention of vision. Mueller's approach is centered on reducing the movement of the fingers of the putting hand. It is very well done, and as such, it is a fine addition to our arsenal of coin sleights. It is probably best utilized, however, in those situations where spectators are "burning" your hands. |
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1114 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2019, Paco_de_la_Luz wrote: When I considered publishing my work on the back thumb palm (which by the way is original in many ways - I can say that because knowledgeable magic historians has been asked about it), here's a part of the researches we did about the sleight. I consider this proper crediting. A way of paying my respect to the ones before me who played with the sleight
Born, John B. Natural Born Killa's (Lecture Notes) © 2005 by John Born p. 34-43 "Balance Palm" Cutting Edge Cards and Coin Magic - J-Team (DVD) Buckley, Arthur Principles and Deceptions © 1948 by Arthur Buckley p. 53 "The rear of Thumb Palm" Hay, Henry The Amateur Magician's Handbook ©1950 by Henry Hay p. 153 "Nate Leipzig's Slow Motion Vanish" Mac Millan, Ron Ron Mac Millan's Modern Art of Coin manipulation © 1981 by Walt Lees p. 63-66 "The rear of Thumb Palm" Riser, Harry Arcane © by Jeff Busby The feints and Temps of Harry Riser © 1996 by Ed Brown p. 43-51 "Two Coin Interlude Plus" Roth, David David Roth's Expert Coin Magic ©1985 by Richard Kaufman p. 42 "Squeeze It" Rubinstein, Michael Encyclopedia of coin sleights Vol. 1 (DVD) "Back thumb palm" Stanyon, Ellis Magic vol. 1, No. 1 © October 1900 by Ellis Stanyon p. 3 "A New Reverse Palm for Vanishing a Coin" Stone, David Cocoon (Lecture notes) © 2002 by David Stone "The Stone Drop" Coin Magic Vol. 2 (DVD) "I Want You" Tarbell, Harlan Tarbell Lesson 21-2 p. 399 "Back Thumb Palm description" Tarbell Lesson 21-13 p. 419 "The Thumb Change-Over" Tarr, Bill Now You See It, Now You Don't ! ©1978 by Bill Tarr and Barry Ross p. 118 "Palming" : "Back Thumb Palm" Victor, Alexander Mahatma Vol. 4, No 1 © July 1900 by Walter G. Peterkin p. 380 "A New Back Hand Coin palm" Watkins, Dan Coin Vanish Vol. 1 © 2002 by Dan Watkins "The Back Thumb Palm Retention Pass" Willmann, Carl Die moderne Salon-Magie © 1891 Der Zauberwelt © 1895 ... to be continued... |
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simplymagicweb Inner circle Norfolk, UK 1591 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2019, Ray Haining wrote: Agreed.
www.sgmagic.co.uk - magic for the real world
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4961 Posts
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Just a small reminder as to crediting, I was the first to put the balance palm position into print in 1985.
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts
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Lawrens, you are to be commended for your very thorough research into this move.
I wrote my post above before I read Mueller's response. He explains himself very well. |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » ReTURNtion by Moritz Mueller - Review (17 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jan 23, 2019 06:05 am 
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