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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Magic Exposers (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Ravenspur
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I'm accustomed to seeing people instruct others on how to do tricks on YouTube. In spite of the number of hits some of these people get, I don't feel like showing how to do a cull or injog does that much damage to magic as a whole.


Today, I came across some guy on Amazon selling a book that is basically a concordance of all Derren Brown's performances and explaining how Derren does each bit in his stage shows. As much as I want to know these things, I admire Derren Brown too much to buy a book exposing his acts.

Is there a line or a continuum for what is acceptable in magic exposure? Personally, I don't explain how anything is done.

(I didn't know where else to post this. Since I'm new to magic, I figured I'd post it here).
funsway
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Teaching a trick. or gifting magic a set is never wrong - IF the intention of the receiver is to possibly perform.

Conducting classes or mentoring those who have demonstrated a sincere interest is good.

The problem with YouTube "reveals' is that there is no way to know what the intention of viewer is. Often the exposer is just trying to get hits for pay.
These folks will probably buy that book as a form of justification for the their violations.

However, all of that exposure is not likely to impact the magic arts too much since presentation is more important than "secret."

What is a real exposure problem is magicians performing without adequate practice. They reveal method to those who do not wish to know or even suspect.
Revealing a magic secret just to make someone happy or an ego stroke is a loss for both the performer and observer.

An old view is that if after an effect is finished the observer "knows" how it was done, or asks, "How did you do that" you have failed as a magician!
They should be saying, "It can't be true, but there is no explanation other than magic!"

If the reason they say this because of exposure through a clumsy or inappropriate performance, then it is worse than the guy writing this book.

Just opinions, of course. Never reveal method without a specific and reasoned justification - deliberately or inadvertently. To "expose" is never right.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Mindpro
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This is exactly how and why youtube has destroyed magic and its longtime secrets and code of ethics. Today it's all about "me" - look at what I know, with no regard or respect for generations-old secrets and oaths.
funsway
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Quote:
On Feb 15, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Today it's all about "me" - look at what I know


Interestingly, the one thing these miscreants cannot stand is "exposure." They have no "knowledge" - only an illusion of one.
They have no "fiends" - just a hit count. They have no character - figuring they can borrow one when they need a job.

I don't fault YouTube as much as the parenting that makes it a forum of "impressing people" over being an impressive person.
Sadly, a lot of what magic is about can never be on a video on any venue. Those who feel they are doing magic on YouTube
also think they can bluff their way through a job interview or term paper in college. (sometimes they can, sigh!)
Even pretending that Internet communication is "interpersonal" is a joke.

The exposure of magic is not only selfish, but destructive for those doing it in ways they do not understand.
Someday they will be exposed (emperor's new cloths) and will not understand that either.

The greatest fear in our culture today is that of "being found out." Or so it seems at 4AM
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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funsway
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I was discussing with my non-magician wife the difference between teaching a secret move, revealing a secret method and exposing magic secrets.

She offered, "if these jerks want to expose that an extra ball is involved, why don't they just drop their pants?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Mindpro
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Wise wife you have there!
A Magic Cafe User
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Quote:
On Feb 15, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
This is exactly how and why youtube has destroyed magic and its longtime secrets and code of ethics. Today it's all about "me" - look at what I know, with no regard or respect for generations-old secrets and oaths.


I agree and disagree. While Youtube is a free for all with anyone revealing tricks, it can also be an important resource for magicians without many resources to buy books etc. It's a double edge sword. Youtube needs to be regulated, which is tough to do. Most professional magicians YouTubers such as Chris Ramsey, Jay Sankey etc. walk a fine line between exposing too much and keeping their views happy. A Magic Café thread on this is here: https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=663130. However, I can see and understand both sides.

Just my humble opinion,

- A Magic Café User
- Just my humble opinion

The more you know, the more you know - Brainpop
Terrible Wizard
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Quote:
Is there a line or a continuum for what is acceptable in magic exposure?


Not as far as I can tell. There is no consensus or consistency at all.

Some magicians never reveal except to 'worthy' disciples under their personal mentorship.
Others are ok with selling secrets, so long as it's their own.
Others sell whatever they can get away with, theirs or not.
Some reveal everything for free.

And most are hypocrites even within their own stated ethics: the one who says all knowledge should be free gets ad revenue and charges for books when they can; the one who joins a magic fraternity and swears an oath to never reveal secrets to the uninitiated created a youtube channel when they need the promotion; the one who disclaims exposure asks their magician buddies how something is done. etc.
Senor Fabuloso
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There ARE still ethics in magic and among TRUE magicians. The problem is the wannabe star, who has no talent but thinks by exposing will get them famous. In many cases, they just fizzle out and die. The Master said "cream always rises to the top" and that is where you will find those with ethics and morals.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Terrible Wizard
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Quote:
On Mar 1, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
There ARE still ethics in magic and among TRUE magicians. The problem is the wannabe star, who has no talent but thinks by exposing will get them famous. In many cases, they just fizzle out and die. The Master said "cream always rises to the top" and that is where you will find those with ethics and morals.


I'm pretty sure I can find examples of well known, successful professional magicians who have been guilty of exposure.

But which true magicians did you have in mind?
Senor Fabuloso
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I have morals and ethics and for me that's good enough. I can't control others and what they do. And honestly, I don't want to.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Terrible Wizard
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Sure enough. But there seems no real connection between fame and ability and ethics.

Where do you draw the line, where Persi Diaconis might draw it, or where Max Maven might draw it, or Jay Sankey, or 52kards?
Senor Fabuloso
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This is going to sound awful but I try to be right in everything I do. I'm not always successful but I try. So I'm not sure I have a line other than what is Biblically dictated in the two tablets. I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion but being Christian, it's how I'm mandated to be.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
funsway
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Well, we do know about Sankey. He wrote

"Inherent in the notion of appreciation is the idea of having a modicum of understanding about the subject.
This is why merely exposing magic methods cannot yield a true appreciation of magic any more than removing the covering cloth from a collection of medical instruments yields an appreciation of what it is to be a surgeon. Instead of coarse and simple-minded exposures of the mechanical means behind magic effects, I believe in sharing with the general public some of the things we ourselves love about the art of magic."

and

"Many magicians treat the secret mechanics behind their effects as the beginning and end of their magic. Why? Because all too often it is! Little wonder they protect these secrets as if they were gold. Bear in mind, those among us who appreciate magic only as a collection of gimmicks and secret methods will typically assume that the general public is only able to appreciate magic for the same narrow reasons. As for the rest of us who love magic for an ocean of reasons apart from gimmicks and secret methods, it is the height of arrogance (as well as extremely cynical) to believe that the general public is unable to appreciate magic for the same reasons we do!"

for me this means he is clear on what his ethical position is. Each professional person in any profession should know what their position is BEFORE being tested.
So, I can agree with Senor's clear limits (for him) even if I disagree with the application. The exposure problem is based in part on those who have no clear position.

Over the past decade on the Café' I have suggested several times that an ethical decision is required on a magic theme.
I got shot down and even slandered for "pushing my moral on others." Not so! I do not care what your moral or ethical positions is --
only that you have one and have considered it in making decisions about what, when and if to perform.

Sadly, I have seen too many performers with one set of values for their personal life, and another for "entertainment."
Exposure is just one area (as opposed to teaching magic). The ethical considerations are somewhat different for each, but the "be accountable" mandate is the same.

Not a "religious" issue at all.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Ravenspur
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I strongly AGREE with this statement:

"I got shot down and even slandered for 'pushing my moral on others.' Not so! I do not care what your moral or ethical positions is --
only that you have one and have considered it in making decisions about what, when and if to perform."

One line I always draw is between what I can control and not control. Then I decide whether it's worth stepping over.
In cases in which I have no control, I have the option of expressing disagreement, but the fact is, disagreeing usually has no effect, or worse, causes the other person to dig in even deeper. If it's important, I will disagree and hope for the best. That usually means NOT taking the bait and trying to stay humble.
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