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lou serrano
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I didn't want to derail the thread on raising prices on repeat clients, but interesting points were made, which I believe deserved a separate discussion.

There are many business models that people can choose from, and I'm curious as to what models others use.

I know of an internet marketer who has a very simple business model, and is able to generate a 7-figure yearly income with it. It consists of three steps. Generate Leads, Make Offers, and Make Sales. It's quite simple. Obviously there's one vitally important part that is missing from this equation, and that is the development and delivery of his products and services.

I also have a very simple business model that is comprised of three modules. My system for creating a highly successful business as a magician is dependent on one important aspect that is often not talked about in most marketing and business development programs. Maybe it's just assumed that this aspect is in place. First we have to start with a quality product. That PRODUCT is our show or presentation.

In my own marketing and business development program, I clearly state that it is ASSUMED that the investor in my system already has a quality product. A program that their target audience would love.

With that being said, there are three main components to my system, which I call ACR (Attraction, Conversion, and Retention).

Attraction is comprised of all the things we do to Attract our ideal prospects and customers. Conversion is comprised of all the things we do to Convert prospects into customers. Retention is comprised of all the things we can do to Retain customers, so they become clients, and hire us over and over again.

In my Attraction module I don't do any type of cold calling or cold emailing. It's not part of my system. Instead I attract the right people to me, so that I waste little time in trying to make a sale. These methods include (but are not limited to) advertising, SEO, blogging, vlogging, in-person networking, and online networking.

Conversion systems include the sales process, communicating the value that my clients receive, social proof, case studies, the construction of effective proposals, and more.

Retention systems may include phone calls, email, snail mail newsletters, postcards, thank you notes, thank you gifts, and much more.

The interesting thing is that the foundation of this system is the same system I used when I first started 25 years ago, when my primary market was children's birthday parties, all the way through today, where 90% of my engagements are corporate events throughout the United States.

So here is a two part question. What does your business model consist of, and how do you know that you're providing value to your target market? As Mindpro frequently points out, most magicians try to create value from their own perspective, and not the perspective of their ideal client, so how do you know what your client values?

I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
Keith Raygor
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One way to know what your clients value is through conversations with long-held clients and agents that share a mutual trust with you. If you've established a healthy relationship, its possible to discuss the things they value, and through that, address them.

As you mentioned, another way is through in-person networking, or even membership in organizations and online groups that include the people you're targeting. LinkedIn and private Facebook groups offer the opportunity for clients and potential clients to be up-front, frank and direct in their needs. These aren't as easy to join as a networking group, because it relies on trust or reputation, but networking opens many of those doors.

My business model now relies heavily on word of mouth and SEO. There was a time when I advertised, and I tracked all my calls and emails to know what was working and what wasn't. But I stopped that in 2013 based on results. The website has replaced the need for advertising. I have averaged 200-220 shows per year for the last 27 years. Like you, I don't use cold calling or cold emailing, though I know some corporate magicians that successfully do.

Word of mouth rules, and as you said, it starts with the assumption of a quality presentation.
Mindpro
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Lou asked for my thoughts in the other thread so here's a few.

Today everyone is so trying to make things plug-n-play, hands-off, automated, simple, easy to learn and implement, etc.

They are trying to make everything oversimplified because if they tell the truth they believe it would deter appeal and sales, so instead, they claim everything with easy to use, simple this or quick that, and so on.

Even in your example of the internet marketer who makes 7 figures based on his simple steps of Generate Leads, Make Offers and Make Sales, this too is a gross oversimplification of the true reality. Sure you could say this for all business - it is just 3 things, create your product, go to market, and make sales - easy as 1, 2, 3. But is really much more.

The truth is this is an oversimplification. From a very basic overview it may appear to be 3 simple steps but the truth is, in reality, each one of those steps has many elements and moving parts under the hood that must be learned, understood and executed to even begin to attain results. Then each of the three steps must be able to work and interface correctly to even get to the third step and the hopes of any results. So sure you can look at it as 3 simple steps, but that is a misperception to the required reality.

Same for your system. You can tell you created it and adapted it from the internet marketers advice, approach, and format. It is how many operate today and really the reason most still struggle - because it is much more than 3 easy steps or parts.

The reality is two things - there is an essential foundational component that MUST be created and in place before anything else even has a chance to succeed. Everything is not simple - it is a process and a process that must be done in sequential order for all component to work properly in concert. This is why many struggle - they either don't realize this, realize it and can't or don't want to put in the effort to learn it, are intimidated by it, or as most do just skip over it or do "their version" of it yet expecting the same results. They can not possibly be successful doing it "their way" without understanding the greater picture and the significance of learning, figuring out and implementing in the proper order.

Now I am not speaking specifically of you, I am speaking more general across the board. This is why when I hear guys say they took one of these 1, 2, 3 step courses and they are doing so much better, I know how really bad they were off in the first place. This also gives them another false perception that they now somehow "get it" and are doing it right. In most cases they aren't because they can't from just learning the overview basics of the 3 steps. It might have provided some structure and guidance which they likely needed, but in most cases they are in no way armed with what they need for success.

Also in your course, you mention you assume that they have a quality show/production already in place. Again, most don't know what that is either. (You know what they say when you assume!) They have what THEY think or feel is a quality show, maybe by their uninformed standards, but in reality, 95% of them do not have the level of show of all aspects that you are assuming. Not by industry or market standards, only by their own uninformed and uneducated perspective.

So then why on earth would you (again not necessarily you Lou, but the creators of many of these courses) even attempt to get into marketing and business with them - it should stop immediately and the work and effort should be put into understanding, creating, and developing a professional, commercial, market-appropriate show that has all of the required elements, including value, in place BEFORE ever thinking about moving on. If they don't know what that is or how to do it - great, they have just identified their first need. But there is no need to move beyond it until this is satisfied. Creating a successful product, or in our case performance should be included in any decent business program or course.

The show (or "product") MUST come before you ever get to the packaging (marketing) or business behind it. In reality, if the foundation is done properly, IT will dictate the creation of the show and will include all of the essential elements, based on many criteria, to best and properly serve their specific market and stand the best chance for success. This is why I've always suggested learning both the show and the business simultaneously from the beginning. For most its too late so they have to go back and start to re-do it from the proper beginning point (or dread doing so and just continuing to do what they have always done.)

I have often said many performers THINK they need one thing and then when we work together it is quickly and easily identified they are completely wrong - that they actually truly need something else first and foremost. Then when they actually get to what they thought they needed it almost falls into place easily without effort if the foundation and process are done properly and in order.

What you describe above is not what I consider a business model. It is the steps you do to execute your business but it is not a business model as we regularly speak of here. So it seems you are asking the steps, process or formula others are using in their business rather than actual business models.

As for creating value, I to would like to hear what others have to say before I offer more thoughts. I will say most only think of value as being or coming from their performance. Again some me-thinking at work here. Because as I said in the other thread, most do not truly understand the concept of value. Also, most operate from their own perspective, not the client or customers. Two HUGELY different things!

Also, don't even get me started on customer service as this is greatly misunderstood as well.

Performers NEED to learn entertainment business. There is so much they need to learn rather than trying to just wing it and figure it out on their own and believing they somehow have got it.

I assure you (anyone) if you are getting $400 in your market, I could easily get $600 for you almost instantly. And it has nothing to do with your show or level of skill or execution. Even if you think you already believe you are priced at the top of your market. This is based solely on value, positioning and a few other elements. Now if you bring your performance up to the pro level standard, it could possibly be even more when combined with value, positioning and more.

I always tell my students they need to talk to a qualified, legitimate, experienced live entertainment agent to learn a real education. Do it with a list of questions and an open mind, be sure to understand the context of the answers they receive (not just your interpretation of what you think they mean or are saying) and you will get a vast education on the live entertainment business. To learn even more than that speak to and pick the brain of a promoter, as they know far more than anyone, including agents, and put up their own money in every deal/booking they do.
55Hudson
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This from Mindoro:

“The show (or "product") MUST come before you ever get to the packaging (marketing) or business behind it. In reality, if the foundation is done properly, IT will dictate the creation of the show and will include all of the essential elements, based on many criteria, to best and properly serve their specific market and stand the best chance for success. This is why I've always suggested learning both the show and the business simultaneously from the beginning. For most its too late so they have to go back and start to re-do it from the proper beginning point (or dread doing so and just continuing to do what they have always done.”

Business strategy should always start with the target customer segment and work back to the product. Most magicians start with magic as a hobby and then work from the product back to the market. That’s not the way a real business should work, but it is reality.

Both Mindoro’s and Lou’s approach can work. Lou’s is simpler and assumes you have a good show that is appropriate for your target market. Mindpro’s makes no such assumption. Of course any strategy may start with a simple three step model, but will always require sub-elements that make it more complicated.

One area where consultants/coaches can really help is in asking the right questions. Understanding what you need to figure out is often where the money is made.

Hudson
lou serrano
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Keith, Mindpro, and Hudson,

Thank you all for your insight. Everyone is making some great points.

Keith, what you talk about is what I call market research. Obviously a great way to enter any market. I also love your business model. I'm hoping that one day my business model will work like yours. I'm getting closer, but I still have a way to go. Congratulations on your success!

Mindpro, language is a funny thing. It's always changing with many interpretations. I define my business model as how I provide value to my customers and make money in the process. Dictinary.com defines it as "a design for the successful operation of a business, identifying revenue sources, customer base, products, and details of financing." So that we are all on the same page speaking the same language, please give us your definition of a business model.

I believe that the magic business is an easy business to succeed in. Most people make things more complicated than they need to be. Even in my system that I use day in and day out and teach to others, there are a multitude of moving parts. Some of those moving parts will be easier for some people to implement than others. For instance, it took me years to learn how to create my own effective websites. There was a huge learning curve, but once I learned the system, it's now easy. I can put together an effective website in a a matter of hours. But the concepts are simple. It takes work to implement. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

I also believe it's impossible to teach the right way to put together a show for any particular market, which is why it's something that isn't covered in any course that I know of. For instance, a show that works for children's birthday parties won't necessarily work for corporate events. Even in the corporate market, what works as an after-dinner banquet show won't work at a trade show.

Even in the trade show market there are different ways to put together a show that is effective for clients. Some trade show performers only do a 10-minute show, while others might do a 60-minute presentation. Each can be effective. Some presentations are filled with technical information while others are not. There is no right or wrong answer. This is where a director, coach, or both can be of great benefit. (By the way, as I write this I'm getting ready to fly to New Orleans to perform at a trade show.)

Hudson, you are quite right in that most magicians start out as hobbyists, and then figure out how to turn it into a business. It's exactly how I started. If it had been the other way around, I would've given up two decades ago.

So the question remains... How do we know with absolute certainty what our clients value? How do we know what they're trying to achieve? How do we know what results they are seeking when putting on an event?

As in all things, simplicity is key, and can be answered with one word. The answer and how we implement it into our systems will make all the difference in the success of our business. It separates the performers who are commodities from those who make top dollar in their chosen market.

Does anyone want to share the answer? Does anyone want to guess?

I'd love to hear your responses.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
Dannydoyle
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You're working the problem backwards. Your client know what they value. They will find you if it is a match. You can't be all things to all clients. It is folly to try. Present YOUR value and clients that need this will show.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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Danny,

I agree that we can't be all things to all people. That is why we should pick a market and focus on attracting our ideal clients. I also agree that we can present our own value, and the people who want it will find us. However we're now looking at things from our own perspective, not the perspective of our clients. If we look at things from the clients perspective, as Mindpro frequently espouses, it's so much easier to charge top dollar for our services.

Lou Serrano
Dannydoyle
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I only know what I provide. That is my limitation.
Danny Doyle
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Mindpro
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My guess the answer Lou is seeking - Ask!
Dannydoyle
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You find a need and fill the need. Sales 101. Very basic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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Quote:
On Feb 14, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
My guess the answer Lou is seeking - Ask!


BINGO!

Too many of us think we are truly mind readers when we're not. The only way to know what our clients value, what they're trying to accomplish, and what results they seek is to ASK!

Once we ask, we can decide whether or not we can provide the desired results. If we believe we can, then we can begin the process of communicating the value of what we do, and the results we bring to the table, so that it addresses their wants, needs, and desires. Most magicians and entertainers NEVER do this.

One of the questions I almost always ask is, "How will you determine whether or not my presentation is a success? What happens next is... they tell me. From this point on I make sure I deliver the results they seek.

ASK - it's what will separate those who sell themselves as commodities from those who charge top dollar in this business.

Here's an example. Let's say I'm performing at a client appreciation event, where the lifetime value of one client is a million dollars. Do you think the decision maker is going to go with a $500 entertainer, and risk alienating one of their prized clients? No way! These people might be spending tens of thousands of dollars just for drinks. Do we have more value than drinks? If we present ourselves correctly, we are worth much more. So charging $5,000 to 10,000 or more for one event is a no-brainer. How can you know what is the lifetime value of a client? ASK

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
TomBoleware
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Many magicians today would probably laugh at my magic skill level, but back in my magic days, the70’s and 80’s, I was earning from a thousand to ten thousand dollars per event. Keep in mind that was 40 years ago when most magicians were being paid fifty dollars for a magic show.

Notice I said I got paid for the ‘event’ not the magic show. It’s the ‘event’ as a whole that benefits the client, not the magic tricks. Magic shows are a dime a dozen, but those who can bring something special to the ‘event’ are rare. I learned early on that I needed to be selling more than just another magic show; I needed to create an event in the clients’ mind that overshadowed the show itself.

The secret is to view it as an event and not just a magic show. Events pay more.Smile

Tom
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Lou your're not wrong. But once we started talking about communicating value and such, I thought ask was assumed I'm sorry. I think it is the equivalent of saying the one thing you NEED to do to be a great race car driver is "turn on the car".

In order to "find the need" the way in which you do that is to ask yes. I am sorry I was not clear.

But the one thing I look at differently (Which in NO way means you are wrong, it is just how I look at it differently is all.) is that your value has NOTHING to do with the drinks. It is possible that you are not as valuable as the drinks. They have nothing to do with each other in the least. They are separate worlds. I have a value because I have a value and it based on what I do and what I provide and has not thing one to do with what people are willing to spend on other things. That line of thinking can backfire on you because when people start to compare you to a lawyer or brain surgeon suddenly the say "oh is he worth more than a doctor"? It is specious reasoning. You have value because you have value, not because drinks cost whatever.

Here is the thing most miss. What your value happens to be has NOTHING TO DO with if your client, intended or actual, can afford you! Read that again. It is the most important part of sales that anyone can try to grasp. Your value has nothing to do with what they can or can not afford. Your value is totally on you. If you want to drop or increase your price based on what they afford or can not afford you will never reach a point at which you can establish your value. Establishing value has everything to do with consistency. Why do jeans at Wal-Mart cost $X? Because they have found that people see that as their value through consistent pricing and availability. They know what they are getting and how much it costs and how long it will be prior to needing a new one and the social value of having that brand. ALL those things and more point to value. Notice how NONE of those things have to do with the persons ability to afford this pair of jeans. The need is the par of jeans, Wal-Mart has them at $X and the person came in looking for them. IF they want better quality or a better brand then they will be looking in a different store in the first place! No need to ask at all really. They are not going to find $200 jeans on the shelves at Wal-Mart because Wal-Mart has ESTABLISHED THEIR VALUE.

When I brought up the concept of establishing value in the first place and communicating it to the client this is what I was talking about. This is why it is SO important. Once you have done this things get really easy. It is done CONSTANTLY throughout your interactions with the client.

You are conflating value with filling their needs. HUGE difference. Value is part of that equation yes but it is SO much more.

Your value is what people think they are getting as an ROI. What you provide is filling the need they have.
Danny Doyle
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Quote:
On Feb 15, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Many magicians today would probably laugh at my magic skill level, but back in my magic days, the70’s and 80’s, I was earning from a thousand to ten thousand dollars per event. Keep in mind that was 40 years ago when most magicians were being paid fifty dollars for a magic show.

Notice I said I got paid for the ‘event’ not the magic show. It’s the ‘event’ as a whole that benefits the client, not the magic tricks. Magic shows are a dime a dozen, but those who can bring something special to the ‘event’ are rare. I learned early on that I needed to be selling more than just another magic show; I needed to create an event in the clients’ mind that overshadowed the show itself.

The secret is to view it as an event and not just a magic show. Events pay more.Smile

Tom

Not to derail this thread but can you tell us how many $10,000 events you did? Or even $1,000 events? Because some of the biggest names in magic were not making that at all back in the 70's. Not even CLOSE.

Average salary throughout the 70's was below 10 grand a year. For a name NOBODY has ever heard of to get 10 grand regularly for an "event" seems a bit out of sorts to me. Don Alan was on TV as much as ANYONE throughout and did not make nearly that money. Soap Opera stars at Malls probably didn't make that sort of money and they were an event. Football players didn't pull in that much and on and on. So the idea of making that kind of money regularly is just mind boggling to me. Without the internet the only way was TV and radio and local newspapers. Getting people to pony up that sort of money is not easy.

So how often did these things happen for you Tom? What "more" did you do to make it an "event"? I see this line of thinking all the time and the bottom line is that many clients simply want you to do the job and be done. A person who brings an "event" is not what "NEED" they have. They want the show. How can your "event" be what everyone is looking for?
Danny Doyle
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Quote:
On Feb 14, 2019, Keith Raygor wrote:

Word of mouth rules, and as you said, it starts with the assumption of a quality presentation.


I have been saying this for a long time now and keep getting told I am crazy and the world is changing. Both are probably true.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Well, the great discussion was good and on topic while it lasted...
Mindpro
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On Feb 14, 2019, lou serrano wrote:

Mindpro, language is a funny thing. It's always changing with many interpretations. I define my business model as how I provide value to my customers and make money in the process. Dictinary.com defines it as "a design for the successful operation of a business, identifying revenue sources, customer base, products, and details of financing." So that we are all on the same page speaking the same language, please give us your definition of a business model.



In most circles "business model pertains to the model you use for conducting your operations and business. Your model for conducting your business, in this case, it would be getting bookings and business. All bookings and business is not the same.

The default business model I often refer to is a someone becomes interested in magic. They get a kit, sven deck or a trick or two, learn it, show it to family or friends and it fools them. They garner a little attention. Then they decide it is fun and to learn more. They discover magic shops or today online dealers and places communities with others like them. Then they learn more while still showing family friends and depending on age, coworkers. They may even impress a few along the way. Eventually one of these people suggests they perform at school in the variety or talent show, or at work for a social event. Or one of them asks if they could "do a little something at a kids birthday party or holiday party. They do some of these here and there, then decide "huh, maybe I could do this for fun and few bucks on the side. They let others know, maybe even get business cards printed and start accepting a few more gigs here and there for a small fee. Of course, this can become an eventual part-time thing. They go to a restaurant and see a tableside magician and think, heck I could do that and...walla we know the rest of the story. They self-proclaim themselves a magician, some guy in one of the communities says the definition of a professional is someone that does something for mommy or pay and walla - he proclaims he is now a professional magician.

Now his efforts go on booking more shows. He does the show or shows and then is back to having nothing so he tries to book more shows. Rinse and repeat.

That is the default business model of how most start in magic. The other scenario that is disappearing lately is they were a customer at the local magic store, then as a teen they got a job at the local magic store, but the process from there is the same.

Most never leave that business model. Most do not ever understand there are other business models for performers to explore. They stick with as Danny says seeking one time bookings, and repeating this over and over. Sure along the way they may get a referral or rebooking, yay.

But other business models such as Danny's is having one or a few clients that use you continually over and over again for hundreds or thousands of shows over time.

Let's use another type of model which would be amusement parks. You put your effort into getting them to book your act for the year or the season. Efforts are put into getting one or a few clients that keep you busy continuously.

Another model would be to target yourself to someone already with a lot of bookings that you can perform or tap into. A residency or variety show would be an example.

Another business model would be booking in a tourist venue/area for seasonal runs annually.

Another would be a touring business model.

Another business mode would be not seeking individual bookings but self-producing shows or 2/4 walling your own shows in theaters and specialized venues.

Another is doing free shows for great income.

There are many, many other business models for entertainment businesses and performers, but I will stop with these basic samples.

Look at Anton Zellman. In his 30 year career, he only had 12 (or maybe it was 14 clients). Yes, he had million dollar a year contracts with several of them, many half a million dollar contracts too, and of course, he renewed the million dollar contracts when they came up for renewal. In 40 years he only sought 12 (or 14) clients. Truth be told I believe he only sought 8-10 of them, others sought him out. This was his business model - not chasing after clients, but completely serving the small amount of specific clients he could commit to and serve properly with the value he had to them. Think about it, only having to get an average of one new client every couple of years to enjoy an executive living for decades. That is quite a bit of a different business model from continuously chasing the one and done type of model most do.

Truth be told very few are successful or become wealthy by doing the one and done business model. Sure some can pound out a nice living but that's about it. For some, that may be all they want is a self-employed job.

I have a unique business model for each of my agencies and entertainment businesses. In fact, many ask why do you have multiple agencies? The answer is because they each serve a different purpose, operate under a specific and unique business model, and are completely separate from each other.

There is much more than meets the eye than most experience on a surface level. I'll say it again...learn entertainment business - the real entertainment business, not the magic business, the default business or the surface business. Learn the differences in consumer markets and professional markets and the business models related to each. It will answer many of your questions and help you to learn the part of (you don't know) "what you don't know.".
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[quote]On Feb 15, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:


Tom
Quote:
Not to derail this thread but can you tell us how many $10,000 events you did? Or even $1,000 events? Because some of the biggest names in magic were not making that at all back in the 70's. Not even CLOSE.

Average salary throughout the 70's was below 10 grand a year. For a name NOBODY has ever heard of to get 10 grand regularly for an "event" seems a bit out of sorts to me. Don Alan was on TV as much as ANYONE throughout and did not make nearly that money. Soap Opera stars at Malls probably didn't make that sort of money and they were an event. Football players didn't pull in that much and on and on. So the idea of making that kind of money regularly is just mind boggling to me. Without the internet the only way was TV and radio and local newspapers. Getting people to pony up that sort of money is not easy.

So how often did these things happen for you Tom? What "more" did you do to make it an "event"? I see this line of thinking all the time and the bottom line is that many clients simply want you to do the job and be done. A person who brings an "event" is not what "NEED" they have. They want the show. How can your "event" be what everyone is looking for?


Danny, I’m not makings stuff up Smile and I completely agree that ten thousand a year was a good salary back then for many.

I produced fund raising events for groups using my illusion show as the product. Not only did I get paid well for the show I owned the phone operation that sold tickets and sponsorships. Much like a boiler room operation would do back then, I did all the work and gave the charity group a percentage to use their name. I make a good full time living for a period of about two years raising money for groups like the Boy & Girl Scouts, 4H Clubs, American Legions, etc. Deals were different but we usually split the profit after the expenses.

My point was simply that when you do more than just the show itself you can expect to be paid more. And don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with doing a show, collecting the check and moving on. But those who don’t mind doing a little extra, (and not to the point I did) for the client can demand a higher fee. And as Lou said, the best way to find out what the clients wants is to ask. And those who can make suggestions that will improve the event will be welcomed back.

Anyway I should have known you would try and make something out of nothing. Sorry I posted.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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I am sorry you posted as well.

Do you mean you walked away with the 10 grand or that it was raised? Because to raise 10 grand with selling tickets and sponsorships TODAY is pretty good. In 1970 it was astronomical for a no name performer to do such a thing. Tickets were in the dollar range back then. Sponsors would not pay the thousands the do now. People in boiler rooms have to be paid, the 4H club needs its cut and the hall needs to make money.

Back then to run a boiler room was a pretty expensive operation all by itself. Not an easy task prior to the internet.

I am trying to learn the business model. You just throw out numbers.

PLUS Tom not to mention that what you are talking about has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CLIENT! YOU are the client and basically 4 walling the deal. You have NO value to them at all and they are not paying you. You are making money based on other factors. So the analogy of a boiler room show is simply not applicable to communicating your value to a client. If you want to say your value to the charity is that you will give them money and do a fund raiser on spec then sure that is something. But it is absolutely NOT the same as charging a client 10 grand to do a show.

It is the difference in lightening and the lightening bug.

I am not making something out of nothing, I am trying to stay on topic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, It amazes me how you try and tell people they can’t do something that they have already done. I would break it down and show you how it works, but I learned a long time ago you can’t teach those who think they already know everything.

Anyway my point wasn’t to tell anyone to do it my way. I was only trying to say that those that are willing to do a little extra can expect more. That was my point.

Again, sorry for the distraction.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
www.tomboleware.com
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