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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricky business Ľ Ľ Business Models and Communicating Value (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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I am not telling you that you can't do it. I find it unlikely and since you have no way to show it I REALLY feel it is odd.

But the most important part Tom is you are comparing apples and oranges, and derailing the thread to do so. YOU were the one running the boiler room and the client was NOT PAYING YOU. NOT THE SAME thing remotely.

I know how that system works Tom. But again you throw out nonsensical numbers and just expect people buy into the silly claim. Was that what you walked away with? Was it what you split with them? What were the expenses? You just give random made up numbers and they don't make sense.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Unlikely? Why, because I wasnít a big name magician. If you think something like the Boy Scouts, American Legion, or VFW is not a big enough name to get people to donate then that right there tells me you donít have a clue how a fund-rasing is run. The show should never be about YOU, that is your ego talking.

Right this down Danny, and Iíll leave you alone: ďYou donít have to be a Big Name Magician to make good money with magicĒ

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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Write this down Tom.

"Write" is spelled with a w when you are speaking about the act of writing.

Also Tom you do need talent. That is the block you have.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
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This is a great topic. A business model is your plan of making money. It is your approach regarding how you choose to come to market with your goods or services. Different companies can arrive at the same point in entirely different ways, with drastically different business models. For example, one kids birthday magician may achieve $105,000 via 300 shows booked @ $350/show through SEO strategies canvassing the masses to attract enough people willing to pay the asking fee for someone they likely never heard of before, based upon the marketing efforts. Another magician can create such a strong brand recognition that they also book 300 shows @ $350/show by simply answering their telephone and accepting the requests that come in due to reputation and word of mouth. The client is not hiring a magician, they are hiring that particular person. Another magician may decide to book fewer shows or charge a lower price and arrive at the same $105,000 by including BOR or add-ons such as balloon animals. These all represent different business models. One needs to match up what their strengths are and business intentions to create a business model that offers them the most potential in a way most suited to their personal needs and desires within the confines of their capabilities. An important factor in choosing a business model in performance entertainment is that the product (live performance) is available in a limited supply. Therefore business growth cannot simply be to do more of the same thing, especially if one is choosing a business model generally reserved for retail mass produced products, such as SEO optimization. On the other hand, if one has a product (show) that fails to truly provide significantly differentiated impact and they are not capable of (or interested in) improvements, growth thru website and mass marketing strategies may be their best available option.
TomBoleware
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Charlecheckers, I agree it is a great topic and something worth thinking about. I also agree there are many different ways to do business.

Now since my post got twisted and taken completely out of context maybe I should explain it a little better.

ďThe secret is to view it as an Ďeventí and not just a magic show. Events pay more.Ē

What I mean is that the purpose of the gathering is not always to just view your magic show. Understanding the real reason why everyone is there is important. Is it a sales meeting, is it to introduce a new product, or is it a party? And what role are you to play. Certainly a magician would be there to entertain, but can you do more? If so then you are creating added value and once you start adding value, you most likely wonít have to ask what your value is, you will be told by the clients why they appreciate you. Clients love little extras and they love it when they think you understand and can relate to their business market

With my fund raising show example, the main purpose was to raise money for the group, ( letís say the local VFW ) but I didnít just raise money collect my part and go home. I make it an Ďeventí to raise money but I didnít stop there, I also wanted to promote goodwill for the VFW in their community. Example, I would get them a free write up in the newspaper, (not hard to do when itís for a worthwhile cause.) Get a spot on one of the local TV shows to raise awareness for the group as well as promote the fundraiser. At times I would give away free show tickets to underprivileged children in the area. And at times visit a school or hospital with someone from the group. Everything was done in the name of the group/client. I worked my butt off to add extra value to the event and that was the real reason I was paid so well and invited back. Some fundraisers would last anywhere from a week to a full month, so the show itself was a very small part of the overall picture.

Now I am not saying that a magician should work a month in order to do a show, Iím only saying that anything beyond the show itself may be appreciated and viewed as adding value to the event. Little extras are often remembered. Odds are good that they will forget your Ďtricksí pretty soon. But much like the old saying, ďpeople will forget what you say or what you do but they never forget how you make them feel.Ē You can bet your bottom dollar that people like Lou is not viewed by the client as being just another magician. He makes the client feel like they made the right decision in hiring HIM. They donít keep hiring him to just come do his tricks. They hire him because he adds value to the event.

So to answer the question, how do you know your value? Simply put, you can assume that your role there is to do the best show you can, collect your pay and leave. For most that is enough. For some it is not. Those willing, ready and able to go the extra mile wonít have to ask what their value is for long because they will hear it often from the clients.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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Tom once again you are confusing terms. And again "write" has a W at the front.

Your value to the client in this fantasy land example is not anything like what we are speaking about. You are basically 4 walling a room and doing all the work and giving them money to use their name. In this silly example YOU are more the client! What value do THEY BRING YOU to do all that work?

Spending all month on one find raiser is ridiculous for 10 grand alleged return. You do all that work plus run the phone room and once it is all said and done they're would be nothing left of 10 grand at the end of this month long process.

To get to your 10 grand in ticket sales a movie ticket back then was about $2.50. You should have to sell an astronomical amount of tickets. Heck TV stars didn't make 10 grand per appearance.

These things are so much more informational without you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, when you provide a service to someone they are considered your client. Not the other way around. I know what 4 walling is and that is not what I was doing. Not even close.
You donít have a clue. Ticket sales was a very small percentage of the money took in. At times the tickets were given away. So please stop being a smart a.. and derailing the thread.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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Tom. Stop being a pain with more fantasy land bs. You can't even spell and you want to act like you are a big deal. Stop making yourself look so bad.

You were not providing much of anything to anyone. YOU did all the work. You did all the work! They had no risk, they had nothing to do except to lend you their name. This is not a client Tom, it is a different business model.

We are talking about communicating VALUE TO A CLIENT such as when a person wants to raise their price. What you describe here is totally a tangent and derailing the thread. I KNOW you just can't help but have the last word but every word shows how little you know.

You do not need to communicate value for what you do to the client. Even if it happened in other than fantasy land you were not being hired. The client was NOT paying you! If you are not being paid there is no pressing need to communicate value. The value is in the show for no risk! I get it, you will NEVER be able to comprehend this. PLEASE don't ruin this even further with your nonsense. Just stop please. You are confusing people.

Oh well this was nice while it lasted. Mindpro was right.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Yes the topic is Communicating Value To A Client and all I have said is the same as some others have said, that sometimes you can do that through your actions. That could be with your past actions or showing a willness to take action. You know, like in Actions Speak Louder Than Words.

Now one last time Danny, yes I was being paid by my client. Why would I work for somebody and not get paid. Really do you know how that sounds. And if my example offends anyone here Iím sorry.

Really Danny, you need to get some angry control help, seriously. Calling people (that you know nothing about) a Liar may one day get you in some serious trouble. You better stop it. Take care.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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Tom nobody is angry you are making that up to distract. Please stop the tactic never works. I HOPE this was really one last time because explaining to you is tiresome.

Calling a person on made up bs is not anger Tom. But since you brought it up and threw out the made up numbers from 1970's I thought I'd ask about them. Obviously the answer is they are made up. I never used the word liar. All I asked you to do is to confirm your statements. You simply can't. Maybe you mis used a comma I don't know. Your example doesn't offend anyone, it is just WAY off topic and just because you can't manage to comprehend it in no way makes this less true.

Here is a direct quote from you Tom.

"I produced fund raising events for groups using my illusion show as the product. Not only did I get paid well for the show I owned the phone operation that sold tickets and sponsorships. Much like a boiler room operation would do back then, I did all the work and gave the charity group a percentage to use their name. I make a good full time living for a period of about two years raising money for groups like the Boy & Girl Scouts, 4H Clubs, American Legions, etc. Deals were different but we usually split the profit after the expenses."

Yet a few posts above you say ticket sales were just a small portion of the money taken in. So were you paid well for the show or not Tom? Which is it? Two TOTALLY different statements.

So your claim is that AFTER profits in a year where average salary was about 15 grand that with giving away tickets your end of the split was 10 grand? Yea Tom nobody is believing that line.

But once again to get to the real heart of the matter. This thread is about communicating value to a client. You were doing no such thing. THEY did not pay you! YOU were the one who got the sponsors according to you in this fantasy land example. YOU were the one doing all the work. All they did was lend you their name! THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING TOM.

What is being spoken about is when a client PAYS YOU out of a budget and you are a percentage of that budget and you want to COMMUNICATE YOUR VALUE to them so they feel comfortable in giving you $X for the show which might be a high tag.Your fantasy land pretend fund raising from 1970 does not qualify.

SO PLEASE do not keep doing this. I am sorry this discussion is so far over your head Tom. But I KNOW you are a last word kind of guy so you will NEVER stop posting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny I believe I said I earned between one and ten thousand dollars. Certainly every gig didnít pay me ten thousand dollars. My base show fee was always one thousand dollars. NEVER did I get paid less than that, and yes they did write me a check for the fee. Anything over my base fee was usually figured on a percentage deal and as I said agreements were not always the same. That was usually based on how much help the group provided. This business model worked well for me at the time. But I will say that times have changed, laws have changed, and people have changed over time. People used to support the local groups, police and fire departments much better than they would today. It was nothing to get a local business, doctor, lawyer or other professional to donate 500 or 1000 dollars when you had a strong sponsor. 20 x $500 would be $10,000. I get my thousand; we split the remaining $9,000. I give all the ticket sales and concession sales to the group and everybody walks away happy. Not bad for a couple weeks work.

Now you have hijacked the thread enough. Maybe one day when I have time I will start a new thread on fundraising shows.

Have a good day.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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So now it is not that you got $10,000, but rather you split $9,000. And that is IF we believe you LOL. Getting that level of sponsorship back in the 70's was not easy. And Tom yea back in the 70's it was NOT easy to get even doctors and lawyers to just give $500. Not by a long shot.

Yes start a new thread on fund raising in fantasy land. Sounds productive. Then I can derail it with made up crap just like you did this one.

Oh and people STILL support fire and police and local groups. They support them without doubt. More bad information thank you.

Hopefully you are done now as this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Feb 14, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Again some me-thinking at work here. Because as I said in the other thread, most do not truly understand the concept of value. Also, most operate from their own perspective, not the client or customers. Two HUGELY different things!


This slight derailment the thread has taken is a great example of what I have said regularly here about many magicians and magician's thinking. They try to adapt context to what they THINK it to be or what they WANT it to mean, not as intended or what it actually means. It is almost always a misinterpretation or unclear understanding, that they will defend their me-based perspective to the end of time.

As I said, most do not understand the concept and principle of value, especially as it related to the entertainment business and the unique buying approach and process that ensures as compared to conventional or retail business. And of course, you see what happens when you try to inform them that what they believe is not what it actually is, especially by industry standards.

Again this isn't just Tom, but many magicians.

I hope this topic (business models and communicating value) can get back on track and maybe if Tom starts a fundraising thread, this line of thinking and discussion can continue there (as Lou did by starting this thread) if there's interest, as many are also very muddy perceptions and understandings with many performers as it pertains to both fundraising and charities. Plus, as Tom said, this old Kramein's stuff really wouldn't work well in today's market without almost a total restructuring.

I too find 10K 40-45 years ago a bit far-fetched, even with sponsors. Money was tight in the 70's, gas lines were around the block with odd and even days, and $1,000 and 10,000 were rare even for magic's top names with a proven draw. Even to achieve this once would be difficult.

It's interesting to me how one person can change the dynamics of the room (or thread).

I'm interested as well in hearing how others create and establish value.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro,

I am talking about the late 70ís or early 80ís. I saw an old poster the other day that said 1981. I would have to dig it all out to be sure about the exact dates. But still, it looks as if you are as confused as Danny. Being a well known magician had nothing to do with being successful in the fundraising business. Itís not about drawing large crowds to the show.

You are right oh that it probably wouldnít work the same in today's market without some adjustments. Most magicians are too lazy to work it anyway. Lol

But make no mistake about it, the fundraising business as a whole is a BILLION DOLLAR market today. Small schools and groups are raising thousands of dollars with fundraisers. Heck around here you canít walk out the door without being hit up by some youngster to buy some cookie dough, magazine, or some other over priced item. We didnít have all that 30 years ago and that made it much easier.

AnywayI am done here now so hopefully the topic can get back on track. Again sorry for my part in the derailment.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Mindpro
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Lol
Dannydoyle
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Average household income in 1981 was $13,773.10 Tom. You yourself said you only did this for 2 years so 1979 till 1981. Keep making up stuff. Problem in the Internet exists! It is a ridiculous claim and you still have not told us how many times this fantasy land stuff happened?

Also Tom the HUGE percentage of groups in 1981 needing a fund raiser didnít have the extra thousand to pay you up front. Not even close and even today most won't have it.

Please be done. Your made up stories about your imaginary friends are really distracting from a great topic.

And 1981 was closer to 40 years ago and yes they did have all that stuff!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Talk about making stuff up.

Who said I sold anything at all to the average household?

Who said anything about getting paid up front?

Who said it was exactly two years?

Danny you have called me a liar enough, do it one more time and I will report you.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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lou serrano
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I found value in Tomís initial post. Why he was instantly attacked is beyond me. I donít think you can point your finger to just one person for the derailment of this thread. Multiple people are to blame. Sad. I stayed away from the Cafť for quite awhile, only to return and see that things havenít changed around here. Itís just the same people arguing with one another. Grown adults bickering like children. I guess Iíll go back to Facebook where groups treat each other with much more respect. Maybe Iíll pop in here in another 6 months if the Cafť is still around.

Have fun everyone!

Lou Serrano
TomBoleware
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Thank you Lou

It is sad that so many good people like you canít feel welcome here anymore.

I said that I wasnít going to let Danny suck me in on his nonsense anymore but this time was different,
I couldnít just sit still and allow him to call me a liar over and over.

I too am going to take a break from here

Thanks everybody

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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Good Tom. Lou the only time we seem to see you is to be sold something.

Oh and Tom wasn't attacked. He was called in bs. Big difference.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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