The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Can every trick be improved on? (9 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9~10~11~12 [Next]
Mr Salk
View Profile
Elite user
Tied to
500 Posts

Profile of Mr Salk
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Francois Lagrange wrote:

I agree. It’s a theoretical question to which the answer is simply “yes”. Why? Because perfection doesn’t exist, therefore in theory every trick is improvable.

Asked this way, the question is a dead end.


Maybe not. If the goal of an trick is to elicit a particular response from a spectator, then there may be a wall. No extra lilt or shift or sigh in presentation would make them believe harder in the magic. They may well be more entertained, or think the magican is funnier or sexier, but the trick itself is not improved.
.


.
Tortuga
View Profile
Elite user
Ballwin, MO
500 Posts

Profile of Tortuga
Again, the goal here is to determine if every trick as in every single trick can be improved on. Not made perfect. That was not stated as the question. If we go down the rabbit hole of perfection, what it is, whether it is achievable in actuality or simply in the mind, then we've gone too far. I invoked the word perfect in an earlier post. To paraphrase I said I felt that some tricks are perfect as-is and shouldn't be changed. I didn't mean to indicate that perfection itself was the goal.

Magicfish needs to weigh in since it is his topic but I think what might have spawned his thread is the idea that some tricks are best left alone. There are folks that believe to tinker with some of the classics diminishes their impact. There are a long list of what are considered "classic" tricks or effects, if you will. I won't bother to name them all as it is impossible. In an earlier post I said that Matrix is an example of a classic routine and that the creator, Al Schneider, was reportedly unhappy when all of the "variations" were spawned. He felt the beauty and clarity of the effect were compromised.

So, Magicfish, if you are out there am I close to what you were asking?
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
The Cups & Balls unwaveringly entertained audiences for 5,000 years. Vernon was a true fool to think that he could just come along and improve such a beloved classic.
Mr Salk
View Profile
Elite user
Tied to
500 Posts

Profile of Mr Salk
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
The Cups & Balls unwaveringly entertained audiences for 5,000 years. Vernon was a true fool to think that he could just come along and improve such a beloved classic.


I'd define Cups & Balls as a routine comprised of tricks.
Changing the order or patter, or adding additions or a kicker to a series does not constitute improving a "trick".
.


.
Tortuga
View Profile
Elite user
Ballwin, MO
500 Posts

Profile of Tortuga
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
The Cups & Balls unwaveringly entertained audiences for 5,000 years. Vernon was a true fool to think that he could just come along and improve such a beloved classic.


Were all the unwaveringly entertaining routines the same?
Tortuga
View Profile
Elite user
Ballwin, MO
500 Posts

Profile of Tortuga
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
The Cups & Balls unwaveringly entertained audiences for 5,000 years. Vernon was a true fool to think that he could just come along and improve such a beloved classic.


I'd define Cups & Balls as a routine comprised of tricks.
Changing the order or patter, or adding additions or a kicker to a series does not constitute improving a "trick".


I would further add that saying cups and balls is the equivalent to saying deck of cards or linking rings. The prop is not the effect.
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
The Cups & Balls unwaveringly entertained audiences for 5,000 years. Vernon was a true fool to think that he could just come along and improve such a beloved classic.


Were all the unwaveringly entertaining routines the same?


No, and that’s where we return to the tricky Theseus’ Ship quandary that plagues this topic and renders it unproductively circuitous. If I devise a mediocre Cups & Balls routine that utilizes, say, two of Vernon’s phases, am I ruining Vernon’s routine? How much of Vernon’s DNA needs to be in the routine to constitute it being ruined? (No off-color jokes, Burnaby. This is a family forum.)

WHY shouldn’t we tinker with, alter, or strive to improve classic tricks? Even failure is progress.
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
The Cups & Balls unwaveringly entertained audiences for 5,000 years. Vernon was a true fool to think that he could just come along and improve such a beloved classic.


I'd define Cups & Balls as a routine comprised of tricks.
Changing the order or patter, or adding additions or a kicker to a series does not constitute improving a "trick".


I would further add that saying cups and balls is the equivalent to saying deck of cards or linking rings. The prop is not the effect.


Sure, we can venture back to grad school to discuss the ins and outs of metonymy. But I thought it went without saying that when I refer to the Cups & Balls in this context, I’m referring to the basic methodological structure upon which Bosco, Robert-Houdin, Vernon and dozens of others built their “classic” routines.
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27037 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Do we want to go down the path of "what do you mean by" questions?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
No. Especially since we already have — to little success:

Quote:
On Mar 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 12, 2019, JBSmith1978 wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Hey folks.
Here is a question for discussion.
Can every card effect ever devised be improved on?


Define your terms.

Do you mean improving method, plot, impact, wonder? In general I would say yes. Regarding a specific performer? I would say yes. Both performer and audience is a moving target.

If you want to limit the extent one can improve something by let's say overgeneralizing terms, then no.

All terms I suppose J.B., nothing hard and fast here, just an open discussion among magic friends.
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
"Can you be specific?"

"I'd rather not."

:)
The Burnaby Kid
View Profile
Inner circle
St. John's, Canada
3017 Posts

Profile of The Burnaby Kid
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
How much of Vernon’s DNA needs to be in the routine to constitute it being ruined? (No off-color jokes, Burnaby. This is a family forum.)


Killjoy.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Mr Salk
View Profile
Elite user
Tied to
500 Posts

Profile of Mr Salk
There are boundaries (sometimes hazy) between tricks and routines. Otherwise every effect can be improved with the levitation and disappearance of a hat.
A stripped-down trick has a maximum impact and wonderment level. To increase awe with kickers is a routine, not a trick. To add flourishes or wit is presentation and personality, not trick-improvement.
.


.
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
Exactly. It's a hazy questions with hazy boundaries.
Pop Haydn
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles
3294 Posts

Profile of Pop Haydn
Maybe the question should be "Should we try to improve every trick we want to perform."
The Burnaby Kid
View Profile
Inner circle
St. John's, Canada
3017 Posts

Profile of The Burnaby Kid
Dig if you will the picture... on one side we have the original trick, on the other side we have the improved trick, and in the middle we've got a chasm filled with the dead, rotting, maggot-infested corpses of tricks that tried to get from one side to the other.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Tortuga
View Profile
Elite user
Ballwin, MO
500 Posts

Profile of Tortuga
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Do we want to go down the path of "what do you mean by" questions?


Sometimes you have to. Otherwise we talk past one-another. Again, I await Magicfish's confirmation but I believe he meant can all tricks, meaning published tricks, be improved.
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
6262 Posts

Profile of magicfish
That is indeed what I meant Tortuga.
Rupert Pupkin
View Profile
Inner circle
1235 Posts

Profile of Rupert Pupkin
What makes a trick "good"?

Once everyone agrees on that, then we can have a productive conversation Smile
AndrewI
View Profile
Regular user
109 Posts

Profile of AndrewI
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
What makes a trick "good"?

Once everyone agrees on that, then we can have a productive conversation Smile

Here here.
There seems to be an implication in the question itself (by asking for a yes or no answer) that somehow “how good a trick/effect is” is something objective, rather than subjective.
It’s a little like asking if every recipe can be improved.
In the frame of the chef, it may be that the answer is no for certain recipes of hers, as she has achieved precisely the flavour, texture and other components which she wanted to achieve, and tinkering will only change that.
But for that same recipe, the answer may well be yes in the frame of the consumer. We all have different palates and if I prefer saltier food and my partner prefers less salty food then the recipe may be improved FOR US by increasing/decreasing the salt content.
I firmly believe that magical tastes are equally subjective and while a trick may not be able to be improved in the eyes of its creator and certain audiences, for every trick there is an audience for whom it could be improved IN THEIR EYES.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Can every trick be improved on? (9 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9~10~11~12 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.22 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL