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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"Even though she was still fooled by the trick, that remark 
ought to scare the daylights out 
of any thinking magician. It did me. 
It also made me reconsider the conventional bromide that you 
should strive to do magic in the spectators' hands. Tain't 
necessarily so..." 
John Bannon

Looking at Dear Mr Fantasy - page 69, there's some work on both the patter and audience management. Good for him. Sure, he could continue exploring and perhaps try Hamman's Acey Ducey or using two volunteers but it's his exploration - does he still do the trick that way or has he improved it into something else?

If our appreciation of a trick is at best affirmed, though likely diminished, by performance (i.e. the phenomenon of feedback changes the noumena of the trick we feel when we think about the trick) then ...is that why folks talk about tricks they don't do? Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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I'll try to respond to each point as best I can. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting:

"If you're performing a work as taught to you and you feel it's fine as is - then great for you. All the better to have some initial exposure to the item as ideal goal for your performances. Your feelings about a work don't require validation from others. Others may respect your choices as regards a work though their own sensibilities direct them toward their own objectives as regards the work."
- I'm not performing a work as taught to me.
And I don't think works that cant be improved are 'fine as the area's I think they are brilliant, sometimes genius.

"Is Eugene Burger's dealing cards onto a tray and revelation in print? I'm holding out comment on that item till I know its status. (citation?) "
-Dont know. Never asked.

"If you like Norm Neilson's violin routine go tell him. That's part of the feedback process for living artists. If they have published you have some options about using aspects of the routine as they suit your purposes."
-Why must I tell him? His routine is legendary. Trust me he has received plenty of feedback without needing to hear from me.
I never mentioned anything about borrowing aspects of a published work. It has little to do with this topic.

"Leonardo was a fine painter and the Mona Lisa is a fine example of a portrait. Do other painters use that shading technique to enhance faces in their portraits?"
-Not sure. What difference does it make.
Borrowing techniques has nothing to do with it. The point is, the Mona Lisa is what it is. You could repaint it with her eating a cheeseburger, or smelling a rose, or laughing histerrically, or riding a horse, it would never, couldnever be an improvement.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"Even though she was still fooled by the trick, that remark 
ought to scare the daylights out 
of any thinking magician. It did me. 
It also made me reconsider the conventional bromide that you 
should strive to do magic in the spectators' hands. Tain't 
necessarily so..." 
John Bannon

Looking at Dear Mr Fantasy - page 69, there's some work on both the patter and audience management. Good for him. Sure, he could continue exploring and perhaps try Hamman's Acey Ducey or using two volunteers but it's his exploration - does he still do the trick that way or has he improved it into something else?

If our appreciation of a trick is at best affirmed, though likely diminished, by performance (i.e. the phenomenon of feedback changes the noumena of the trick we feel when we think about the trick) then ...is that why folks talk about tricks they don't do? Smile


"If our appreciation of a trick is at best affirmed, though likely diminished, by performance"

-I think our appreciation of a trick is at best affirmed by watching it.
We talk about tricks we don't do more than tricks we do.
Do you think every person who ever saw Blackstones floating lightbulb talked about it because they performed it?
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Magicians tend to obsessively latch on to and adere to phrases and concepts unnecessarily like: He stopped thinking too soon or, the magic is always stronger in the spectators' hands. I find it cyclical. Cant wait for the next flawed frenzy.


Agreed. I find it silly that magicians see such obvious notions as pearls of wisdom.


I disagree. I think you are taking it a bit too far. Those statements were made by great magicians and are true in many situations. They should not be seen as absolutes or laws to be rigidly adhered to. There are a lot of bromides in magic and somebody had to say it first, or become associated with it. Vernon's "be natural" for example. It is generally true but then there are magicians that display decidedly unnatural skill through cardistry moves yet they still fool and entertain.

Magicfish was absolutely correct to say magicians should not OBSESSIVELY latch on to those concepts.

But we shouldn't dismiss the wisdom of those who went before us.
Jonathan Townsend
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So is this about the quantifier any?

In the item you described with the tray - recall Tommy Wonder's Wildcard routine and his approach to repeat performances. Hmmm? Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
AndrewI
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Quote:
On Sep 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"Leonardo was a fine painter and the Mona Lisa is a fine example of a portrait. Do other painters use that shading technique to enhance faces in their portraits?"
-Not sure. What difference does it make.
Borrowing techniques has nothing to do with it. The point is, the Mona Lisa is what it is. You could repaint it with her eating a cheeseburger, or smelling a rose, or laughing histerrically, or riding a horse, it would never, could never be an improvement.

I guess that's where you and I differ wildly in our opinions.
Much (and if anyone has seen the painting itself in the Louvre, they may well be thinking all) of the Mona Lisa's perceived perfection comes from centuries of people being told how perfect it is. I swear, if you know NOTHING of the painting at all, and had never seen nor heard of it, then it would not stand out to you as anything other than a fine portrait.
Was Leonardo even satisfied that it was perfect? We can never know that for sure. We do know that he continually modified, painted over and retouched his work so perhaps even he might look at it and see how he may have improved it.

I'm not going off tangent here - I think that perhaps some of our belief that a trick cannot be improved might lie in us being taught that way, to respect the mastery of the greats and the brilliance of certain tricks. If we were to see the tricks cold without any of their history or provenance known to us, would we be so blown away? I'll use your tray trick as an example. If I watched that, I'd would enjoy it, but I would immediately be thinking "oh ok so either the card was time-forced or there were multiple outs". It would be a clever presentation but not a "trick that couldn't be improved", in my view. Perfection and improvement are of necessity subjective.
magicfish
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"We do know that he continually modified, painted over and retouched his work so perhaps even he might look at it and see how he may have improved it."
As many if not all artists do before they put out s finished product.
It's the finished product that I feel cant be improved- not the various earlier morphs as part of the artist's creative process.
Mr Salk
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Duchamp and Dali made significant improvements to the Mona Lisa. The original isn't the least bit humorous.
.


.
magicfish
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On Sep 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Duchamp and Dali made significant improvements to the Mona Lisa. The original isn't the least bit humorous.

Why would it be?

Improvement is subjective as many here have stated- I agree. But ten thousand people could ponder how to improve the ceiling of th the Sistine Chapel and they wouldnt be wrong in their own minds, but they would be wrong.
Some things shouldnt be "improved".
I think most people would agree with this.
But magicians are a funny lot.

Take Michael Ammar's performance of Roll Over Aces on the Tonight Show. Complete with security guards and a stop watch. It was a masterpiece. Improve it? Not a chance.
Just my opinion of course.
Jonathan Townsend
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From Vernon Courtesy of David Ben:
Quote:
The late Dr. Elliott was thoroly [sic] versed in the secrets of the professional gambler, and by their judicious use was able to non
plus and completely bewilder the even well-schooled magicians of his time. Furthermore, he realized the vital importance of making all sleights and move under cover of perfectly natural movements. He had absolutely no use for any fanciful or exaggerated gestures of any kind. “Be Natural,” was his favorite slogan. No one but Dr. Elliott’s closest friends can conceive the years of practice he put in on single trifling little moves to bring them to perfection. All the time he was practicing another was doing likewise. His name is Arthur Finley, and today I haven’t a doubt but he is the rightful successor to Dr. Elliott.
Have a good night folks.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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Good Morning Jon. A great passage and one I have read many times.
Could you tell us how it pertains to this topic?
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Sep 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Good Morning Jon. A great passage and one I have read many times.
Could you tell us how it pertains to this topic?


Perhaps because I used the Vernon "Be natural" quote in a previous post?
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Mar 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Can every card effect ever devised be improved on?
Good morning,

As best I recall from asking those who make things... craftsman will say a work is done for its purpose while artists working toward some aesthetic produce many attempts (or studies) and rather than claim perfection, just move on to some other exploration as directed by their muses. Look at Josef Albers work. He kind of had the entire square/color thing done in 1950 with that painting done on a board... but oh those colors. And his Aquarium! (1939 woodblock) you can see how that evolved from a line doodle and and a discovery.

So far getting any card trick into some form which reads as natural for me requires some, if not extensive tailoring, improvements. Researching routines to go back to earliest sources and tracking forward to present day for useful options ... usually surprising where the tricks go. I wanted a two card transposition which uses a bluff call before the card change. The choreography I was using led to Ken Krenzel suggesting a "do as I do" presentation. Is that work perfect or finished... I don't know but it's a good trick. Thank you Ken Krenzel for helping me and Harry Lorayne for getting it into print before it got around and lost clear provenance.

If you read elsewhere on the Café you can find my exploration of the Elmsley Count into three candidates for practical use. Sadly I missed presenting Alex Elmsley himself that cute note between generations "Yo Alex" - but there's a lesson. I better get a thank you note to Roy Walton for his mid-count change (used in Elmsley's Four Card Trick and Vernon's Twisting). So between base technique, magical effect, presentation frame, apparent actions, prop managment ... five degrees of freedom and no clear "perfect" items yet.

If I wanted to produce a portrait, would I morph Leonardo's work to reflect my subject?... Not likely. So whatever Leonardo's portrait was to him - to me it's an artifact and reminder of what artists can do - a level bar. Same for most of the "classic" or "perfect" art examples you might cite.

Is that trick with the tray and dealing cards in print? It reads as a nice update on the "spin bottle to wind up at selection" item from Ponsin's book. And the idea of doing it standing so folks deal cards onto a tray ... wonderful. The logistical problem is carrying one or more trays. I'm thinking the practical choice will be down to finding a tray with a slot to insert a jumbo card versus having a few trays as in the Nemo 1500 wallets.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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I'm not sure whether it's in print or not.
magicfish
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A couple of members alluded to a Fechter item earlier in the thread. Apparently an Improvement to Daleys Last Trick. At first I thought they were referring to Be Honest, What is it?
But that couldn't be.
Anyone know which item they may've been referring to.
Jonathan Townsend
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How do you come to an opinion that "Be Honest, What is it" is not the item?

* Smile Looks like today's news has a find in Shakespeare scholarship. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/s......en-found
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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On Sep 16, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
How do you come to an opinion that "Be Honest, What is it" is not the item?

* Smile Looks like today's news has a find in Shakespeare scholarship. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/s......en-found

Because it is not a version of Daley's Last Trick. It is Fechter's excellent Be Honest, What is it? Great trick.
AndrewI
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On Sep 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Take Michael Ammar's performance of Roll Over Aces on the Tonight Show. Complete with security guards and a stop watch. It was a masterpiece. Improve it? Not a chance.
Just my opinion of course.

In the post just above this quoted one, you said that people who thought the Sistine chapel ceiling could be improved would not be wrong in their own minds, but they would be wrong.
Meanwhile in this post quoted, you accept that your view that Ammar’s performance could not be improved is just your opinion. Is it possible that, by your own logic, you may not be wrong in your own mind, but you may be wrong?
Or perhaps your first post should have read “... they would not be wrong in their own minds, but they would be wrong IN MINE.” Which is a different matter entirely, and one with which I agree.
magicfish
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Good point Andrewl, and thankyou for pointing it out. I agree, they would be wrong in my mind.
weirdwizardx
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I think everything can be improved as we are perfectible beings we cant do perfect things, just perfectible ones, so everything the human does in my opinion can be refined. And every time that improvement will be more difficult, cause it will be closer to perfection, but it will never be.

Just my toughts
Cristóbal
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