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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Can every trick be improved on? (10 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicfish
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Thankyou for such a thoughtful, well written post Tortuga. And I'm not just saying that because I agree with you. Smile
magicfish
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No 6
Yes 6
Maybe 3
ejohn
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No, not every.
countrymaven
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Yes, tortuga:
you said: I'll bet some people feel these things are indeed improvements. I tend to fall on the side of keeping things simple, effects clear and not adding so many climaxes onto a trick that at the end the audience cannot even remember what the point was in the first place.

I agree. I tend toward simpler more stunning effects. Where if real magic were to happen they would not see any real difference. I am perhaps a heretic in this sense: I am not convince that a longer routine of average or average plus magic really makes that much difference to spectators. They want to be shocked, and overwhelmed by a miracle. That is why a lot of what I perform as a pro is magic I had to create and test.

But I respect you if whatever you do works for you.
jim ferguson
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Countrymaven,

Are there any examples/clips of these stunning professional miracles you keep telling us all about in your posts ? As a pro, I assume you have a website we can check out ?

Very few rise to the miracle class in their performances. To repeatedly claim your own work is stunning etc is quite extraordinary - and you know what they say about extraordinary claims..



Jim
EllisJames52
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Countrymaven,
I disagree about “overwhelming” and “shocking” the audience. Why would an audience want to be overwhelmed? Audiences aren’t stupid. The majority of them know that they aren’t seeing “real” magic.

I feel like a lot could be cleared up with a video of a routine or a written example. Perhaps I am struggling to imagine magic that is simple, overwhelming, and of miracle status.
magicfish
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No 7
Yes 6
Maybe 3
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
Countrymaven,
I disagree about “overwhelming” and “shocking” the audience. Why would an audience want to be overwhelmed? Audiences aren’t stupid. The majority of them know that they aren’t seeing “real” magic.

I feel like a lot could be cleared up with a video of a routine or a written example. Perhaps I am struggling to imagine magic that is simple, overwhelming, and of miracle status.


scottvraneshfallin
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
I feel like a lot could be cleared up with a video of a routine or a written example. Perhaps I am struggling to imagine magic that is simple, overwhelming, and of miracle status.




That would qualify, Pop!
EllisJames52
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Pop, that’s one of my favorite routines of yours. It’s direct and simple and oh so powerful. (Most of your routines are)
But I wouldn’t say that it’s overwhelming. It’s clear and direct. I could also be misunderstanding what you mean by “overwhelming”
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
Pop, that’s one of my favorite routines of yours. It’s direct and simple and oh so powerful. (Most of your routines are)
But I wouldn’t say that it’s overwhelming. It’s clear and direct. I could also be misunderstanding what you mean by “overwhelming”


That is because you cannot be overwhelmed. You can't see the magic from the spectator's point of view. You are looking from the jaundiced view of the magician, not the spectator.

Look at the guy's face. He is overwhelmed. Laughing from total mystification.

When the dilemma is set hard, the experience can be very overwhelming. They don't believe they have witnessed magic, but they haven't got even a clue what it was they did see: There is no such thing as magic/There is no other possible explanation.
EllisJames52
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
Pop, that’s one of my favorite routines of yours. It’s direct and simple and oh so powerful. (Most of your routines are)
But I wouldn’t say that it’s overwhelming. It’s clear and direct. I could also be misunderstanding what you mean by “overwhelming”


That is because you cannot be overwhelmed. You can't see the magic from the spectator's point of view. You are looking from the jaundiced view of the magician, not the spectator.

Look at the guy's face. He is overwhelmed. Laughing from total mystification.

When the dilemma is set hard, the experience can be very overwhelming. They don't believe they have witnessed magic, but they haven't got even a clue what it was they did see: There is no such thing as magic/There is no other possible explanation.


I haven’t thought about it that way. I was thinking about being overwhelmed by too much stimuli, like when a trick gets too confusing or too hard to follow.
Thank you for the explanation, Pop! Do you have tips on learning to see from the spectators POV?
magicfish
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Tough to improve on that one.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
Pop, that’s one of my favorite routines of yours. It’s direct and simple and oh so powerful. (Most of your routines are)
But I wouldn’t say that it’s overwhelming. It’s clear and direct. I could also be misunderstanding what you mean by “overwhelming”


That is because you cannot be overwhelmed. You can't see the magic from the spectator's point of view. You are looking from the jaundiced view of the magician, not the spectator.

Look at the guy's face. He is overwhelmed. Laughing from total mystification.

When the dilemma is set hard, the experience can be very overwhelming. They don't believe they have witnessed magic, but they haven't got even a clue what it was they did see: There is no such thing as magic/There is no other possible explanation.


I haven’t thought about it that way. I was thinking about being overwhelmed by too much stimuli, like when a trick gets too confusing or too hard to follow.
Thank you for the explanation, Pop! Do you have tips on learning to see from the spectators POV?


Try telling the story the spectator will be telling later. Look at the trick step by step, what will the spectator be thinking here?

I saw a guy put a coin in a bottle.
No way!
Yes, it was amazing!
Maybe it was a trick bottle?
I drank a beer out of that bottle!
Then it was a trick coin.
I examined the coin.
Maybe he switched coins on you...
Maybe he did. But he threw the coin through the bottom of the bottle. I was holding the other end, so what kind of trick coin can go through the bottom of the bottle?
You got me. Do you think it was real magic?
Of course not! But you tell me, what was it?

It is our job to create this story for them to tell, and give them all the arguments they need to defend their story.
countrymaven
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I would agree with Whit. His coin in a bottle, by the spectator's reactions, is a miracle. He is not trying to finesse it or do it three times etc. It is a miracle.

I think if you develop original material nowadays, if it registers in the miracle class, it is better, often to keep it to yourself. It is so hard to make a great magic trick pay off, with all the overseas discounters and the magic market as it is.

For example, I do a very simple sponge ball routine, but VERY SHORT. I use a unique device I made. I have shown it to a couple magicians and their jaws dropped. Today during a trip I stopped at Mcdonalds and did it and the spectators were too scared to see more magic. Until I coaxed them. So I think, by the spectators' reactions, this is what I described, something short and direct, and which looks just like real magic.

But obviously, this can also be achieved with something like Master Haydn's great coin in bottle. Again, it is the spectator's reaction to a "miracle" that is what I am looking for.

I am just making the point again, that doing a long pick a card and find it routine, etc, does not mean it is really impressive to spectators. Also, I need to test drive my magic as often as possible. If I have a routine that is too long, I could rarely find someone to test it on, apart from my shows.
magicfish
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"...doing a long pick a card and find it routine, etc, does not mean it is really impressive to spectators."
No, but it can be miraculous.
countrymaven
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Yes I agree magicfish. Yes, in the right hands. Good point. I have to test most of my effects, and it is hard for me to find people willing to watch a long routine. I guess attention spans have shortened. But in the right hands, yes, almost anything can be magical.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Apr 11, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Yes I agree magicfish. Yes, in the right hands. Good point. I have to test most of my effects, and it is hard for me to find people willing to watch a long routine. I guess attention spans have shortened. But in the right hands, yes, almost anything can be magical.


The problem is not with the length of the routine, but the ability of the routine to hold the spectator's attention. People will watch long routines if they are constructed so that something interesting is happening on a regular basis. A good long routine is really like a series of short miraculous effects.
magicfish
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countrymaven
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Yes master Haydn, I agree. But I was trying to say if the magic is not so great, or average in quality, making it longer does not really add a lot to it. But if it is high quality and well presented, yes it is magical.
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