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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Sleights that wont fool anyone (26 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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diamondjack
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I have been watching a lot of youtube magic videos lately and something occured to me. There have been some sleights that have never fooled me. Even when I was a child and before I studied card magic. Here are three sleights I have always thought were not convincing.

1:The Flustration count
2:The Mexican Turnover.
3:The Shapeshifter Change.

I have seen these moves preformed even before I knew anything about card magic and they have never fooled me. Anyone else have some sleights that they think won't even fool laymen?
Steve Friedberg
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Properly done, Jack, they *will* fool people. For instance, JC Wagner's take on the Flustration Count makes it a real worker. The Shapeshifter is a bit of visual magic that can astound people; I don't do it because I can't nail it every time, but I've found Marlo's Sleeve Change accomplishes the exact same thing...and that, I *can* do.

Keep practicing.
Cheers,
Steve

"A trick does not fool the eyes, but fools the brain." -- John Mulholland
magicfish
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These moves definitely fool!
davidpaul$
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Youtube magic videos. Well that speaks volumes.
I utilize the sleights you mention. If done properly, in the context of a routine with the proper speed finesse and timing they are powerful tools. They are popular sleights that have stood the test of time for a reason (in the proper hands)
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
Rupert Pupkin
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No discrepancy can fool everybody. It's a discrepancy.
mlippo
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90% of the videos on YouTube show teenagers wearing shorts and a vest, sitting on their beds and filming a close up of their hands (alright slightly exaggerating here, but maybe not so much ...).

What I really mean is that too often the moves are performed badly, with a bad timing and, to make things worse, the close up shot, makes you miss (this is true for any move, not just the ones you cite here) body talk, direction of attention, eye contact between magician and audience and so on, and these are things that help immensely during the execution of the move.
I can't speak for the Mexican Turnover as I have never studied it enough to perform it, but it's certainly valid for the other two you're questioning.

Mark
magicfish
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Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, mlippo wrote:
90% of the videos on YouTube show teenagers wearing shorts and a vest, sitting on their beds and filming a close up of their hands (alright slightly exaggerating here, but maybe not so much ...).

What I really mean is that too often the moves are performed badly, with a bad timing and, to make things worse, the close up shot, makes you miss (this is true for any move, not just the ones you cite here) body talk, direction of attention, eye contact between magician and audience and so on, and these are things that help immensely during the execution of the move.
I can't speak for the Mexican Turnover as I have never studied it enough to perform it, but it's certainly valid for the other two you're questioning.

Mark

Exactly.
diamondjack
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I think the reason I never found these moves very useful is that the nature of the sleights draws attention to the cards when you preform them. Color changes and false counts direct your attention to the cards, otherwise why do them? The shapeshifter change is supposed to be like other color changes...the visual change of one card into another. The problem is that even when I was a little kid before I knew anything about card magic I saw someone do the change and immediately knew how it was done. The handling is not concealed in any way that would lead you away from the solution.
same with the flustration count. I suppose you could do it fast enough to confuse the spectators but that wouldent be very convincing.

I suppose you could do the mexican turnoveron the off beat with the heat away from the cards, but I havent seen anyone do that. You're better off picking up the card and doing a top change.

Again, this is just my experiance. Maybe someone can show me where I can see someone preform these sleights in a convincing manner.
Rupert Pupkin
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Yeah, with the Shapeshifter, you're basically inviting someone to stare at the visual discrepancy.

Same goes for the Flushstration Count. Now, conventional wisdom says that move should follow a stronger show, such as a Diminishing Lift. That certainly helps reinforce the illusion by lowering the spectators' vigilance. But it will never be a guaranteed fooler, and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

The faults in these two moves are objective and have nothing to do with YouTube.

The visual discrepancy of the Mexican Turnover can effectively be eliminated through proper blocking, timing, and gaze management (what a term). After all, no one can see a discrepancy if they're not looking at it, eh? If I remember correctly, Juan Tamariz provides blocking that accomplishes just that. It can be found in Sonata.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, mlippo wrote:
90% of the videos on YouTube show teenagers wearing shorts and a vest, sitting on their beds and filming a close up of their hands (alright slightly exaggerating here, but maybe not so much ...).

What I really mean is that too often the moves are performed badly, with a bad timing and, to make things worse, the close up shot, makes you miss (this is true for any move, not just the ones you cite here) body talk, direction of attention, eye contact between magician and audience and so on, and these are things that help immensely during the execution of the move.
I can't speak for the Mexican Turnover as I have never studied it enough to perform it, but it's certainly valid for the other two you're questioning.

Mark


How do any of those things eliminate the visual discrepancies in the Shapeshifter or Flushstration Count? The corners will always swap, and you will always be flashing the bottom card. Unless someone isn't looking at the move, which then leads to the obvious question: Why do them at all?
Rupert Pupkin
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I'm not saying we should abandon discrepant moves. Rather, we shouldn't chastise someone for calling out their obvious flaws — discrepancies are by definition flawed. Nor should we blame said flaws on the fact that a Youtuber was performing them. Nonsense.
JBSmith1978
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I use the Flustration Count and Mexican Turnover within certain contexts. I use the Shapeshifter occasionally as well. I sometimes use it's precursors and offshoots too. As with any move in magic, if you don't see how something will fly it's best to avoid it till you do.

As an aside I do something similar to a Mexican Turnover in a routine that is visually more illogical than any of the aforementioned discrepancies. You just have to pick your battles appropriately.

As an aside many perform the moves you cited poorly and or not in the best situations.
Harry Lorayne
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Always the performer that "won't" fool - not the "established" sleights. ALWAYS.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
davidpaul$
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Well here is where I differ in certain aspects. If you are just performing DeSousa's (the originator) Shapeshifter or any other sleights mentioned in an of themselves, well one can deduce. BUT if you establish yourself in the context of a show that you can do some extaordinary feats, then what you do becomes more believable. It's about entertainment and not focusing on one move.

I'll direct your attention to Jean-Pierre Vallarino. Ultimate McDonald's Aces, Rumba Count, Ultimate Wild Card. Watching his Wild Card Routine is a thing of beauty and you can care less about the moves. Maybe it's our personality in performance that is lacking. What we do should be enjoyable.

When you go to a really good movie, you KNOW it's not real. You KNOW they are acting and it's all special effects. Why does the movie industry bring in billions of dollars?

Maybe our focus should be on entertaining and engaging our audience where they leave feeling good and wanting to see YOU again.

I posted this before I saw Harry's post. His post said it all.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Always the performer that "won't" fool - not the "established" sleights. ALWAYS.


A good performance can only reinforce a visual discrepancy's deceptiveness, not guarantee it.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, davidpaul$ wrote:
When you go to a really good movie, you KNOW it's not real. You KNOW they are acting and it's all special effects. Why does the movie industry bring in billions of dollars?


It's easier to suspend my disbelief when I CAN'T see the wires lifting Peter Pan.

If you want to focus on entertaining spectators, then go be an actor or a comic or a writer. If you want to give someone the experience of magic -- whatever that may be -- then be realistic about the deceptiveness of your repertoire.
Bobby Forbes
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Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, davidpaul$ wrote:
When you go to a really good movie, you KNOW it's not real. You KNOW they are acting and it's all special effects. Why does the movie industry bring in billions of dollars?


It's easier to suspend my disbelief when I CAN'T see the wires lifting Peter Pan.

If you want to focus on entertaining spectators, then go be an actor or a comic or a writer. If you want to give someone the experience of magic -- whatever that may be -- then be realistic about the deceptiveness of your repertoire.



Couldn't have said it better.
davidpaul$
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Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 14, 2019, davidpaul$ wrote:
When you go to a really good movie, you KNOW it's not real. You KNOW they are acting and it's all special effects. Why does the movie industry bring in billions of dollars?


It's easier to suspend my disbelief when I CAN'T see the wires lifting Peter Pan.

If you want to focus on entertaining spectators, then go be an actor or a comic or a writer. If you want to give someone the experience of magic -- whatever that may be -- then be realistic about the deceptiveness of your repertoire.


Just curious... Do you perform on a regular basis for paying establishments/venues?
I don't know your backround and you certainly sound very knowledgeable. I'm a bit confused by your statements, but that's just me I suppose. I entertain regularly am paid well and have been for years as a magician. I assume if my audience wasn't entetained and found my deceptivness unrealistic I would not be working. That's what it boils down for me. Your mileage obviouly varies but that's OK.
I will continue to do what works for me.

We are all just trying to help each other with our on personal experiences.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
Al Schneider
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Just for giggles.

Recently I came up with a different concept.
I have posted this elsewhere in this forum.

When a magic event occurs that appears very magical but the audience can discern a possible solution, they are very entertained and respond appropriately.

When a magic event occurs that appears very magical but the audience CANNOT discern a possible solution, they are stunned and in general do not respond.

I could back up all this with examples but I will save that for my next book.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
martyjacobs
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I'd agree with that observation, Al. When a magical effect completely deceives a person they are usually lost for words, i.e. don't know how to react because they're experiencing cognitive dissonance: I know what I saw is impossible, but I just witnessed the magician do it.

This often results in an extended period of silence, followed by swearing and statements such as, "I don't like this!" Dissonance is not a comfortable feeling for most human beings.

Marty

P.S. Love your work. Keep writing those books.
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