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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Sleights that wont fool anyone (26 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Rupert Pupkin
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This is an even dumber Café conversation than usual.

As long as a spectator is able to see the discrepant take of the card, the Flushstration Count is not a foolproof move.

I'm out. Later!
magicfish
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Quote:
On Mar 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
This is an even dumber Café conversation than usual.

As long as a spectator is able to see the discrepant take of the card, the Flushstration Count is not a foolproof move.

I'm out. Later!

Dumb indeed. This is about the silliest sentence I've read in awhile- regardless of font thickness. NO count is foolproof if the onlooker determines it is false whether it be an ascanio spread or a Gemini count.
diamondjack
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Some discrepancies can fool a layman but my initial post was specifically about the flustration count. I think that the discrepancy is too big to fool most people. The only way to cover it would be some kind of misdirection, but then why do the count? The count is supposed to be a convincer that the faces or backs of the cards are all the same.A false count is not a "secret slieight" like a pass because you want them looking at the cards when you do it.
magicfish
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No. If you are relying solely on a flushtration count to demonstrate the identical cards then you are drawing attention to it in every way. This is not the way to use it.
magicfish
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"Unless you choreograph the Flushtration Count so that the spectators are looking away from the cards every single time you thumb the top card into the taking hand, then it’s not a guaranteed move. It can’t be."

Incorrect.
EllisJames52
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I’m honestly not sure who’s arguing what anymore. To go back to diamondjack’s question, it might be an issue with the way you’re doing it, or the context. Feel free to pm me if you want some help. But I do want to stress that you can fool people with the move. (Though convince might be the better word) You can use it to show that the cards are identical. But that’s just my two cents
EllisJames52
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Quote:
On Mar 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 28, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
The performer needs the right attitude and the right misdirection.


As stated above, if you choreograph the Flushtration Count so that the spectator is looking away every single time the take happens -- thus eliminating the visual discrepancy -- then sure, it's foolproof.

This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
Audience's aren't cameras.


Correct. They're thinking adults with miraculous brains that are capable of interpreting millions of vanishingly minute bits of information. At the end of the day you're flashing the bottom card over and over. We can only do so much to hide that (let's be honest, boneheaded) fact.

Quote:
Discrepancies can fool everyone.


An incredible sentence that requires no further comment.


Also, just to clear up one thing, misdirection does NOT mean making someone look the other way. You can use it to cover discrepancies (or other dirty work) by shifting the focus. Here’s an example of misdirection. Can you count the basketball passes?

https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo

Shifting focus is one way misdirection can be used.
asherfox
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On Mar 13, 2019, diamondjack wrote:
I have been watching a lot of youtube magic videos lately and something occured to me. There have been some sleights that have never fooled me. Even when I was a child and before I studied card magic. Here are three sleights I have always thought were not convincing.

1:The Flustration count
2:The Mexican Turnover.
3:The Shapeshifter Change.

I have seen these moves preformed even before I knew anything about card magic and they have never fooled me. Anyone else have some sleights that they think won't even fool laymen?


Well, they work. Actually, I think they work much better than your thought.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Mar 29, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 28, 2019, EllisJames52 wrote:
The performer needs the right attitude and the right misdirection.


As stated above, if you choreograph the Flushtration Count so that the spectator is looking away every single time the take happens -- thus eliminating the visual discrepancy -- then sure, it's foolproof.

This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
Audience's aren't cameras.


Correct. They're thinking adults with miraculous brains that are capable of interpreting millions of vanishingly minute bits of information. At the end of the day you're flashing the bottom card over and over. We can only do so much to hide that (let's be honest, boneheaded) fact.

Quote:
Discrepancies can fool everyone.


An incredible sentence that requires no further comment.


Also, just to clear up one thing, misdirection does NOT mean making someone look the other way. You can use it to cover discrepancies (or other dirty work) by shifting the focus. Here’s an example of misdirection. Can you count the basketball passes?

https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo

Shifting focus is one way misdirection can be used.

Exactly. The flushtration count should blend and be incidental. The onlookers already know that all the cards or the same.
davidpaul$
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Quote:
On Mar 30, 2019, asherfox wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 13, 2019, diamondjack wrote:
I have been watching a lot of youtube magic videos lately and something occured to me. There have been some sleights that have never fooled me. Even when I was a child and before I studied card magic. Here are three sleights I have always thought were not convincing.

1:The Flustration count
2:The Mexican Turnover.
3:The Shapeshifter Change.

I have seen these moves preformed even before I knew anything about card magic and they have never fooled me. Anyone else have some sleights that they think won't even fool laymen?


Well, they work. Actually, I think they work much better than your thought.


I agree..They work. I just wonder if those that say the moves are obvious actually perform on a regular, consistent basis. People that don't perform consistently tend to focus just on moves as opposed to the context of a full, entertaing performance/routine.

Sure if you are going to execute a flushtration count in and of itself, it's like focusing just on the applesauce as opposed to all the other foods and drink on your dinnerplate. Cadence has allot to do with execution of sleights. Some sleights like the Elmsley count can be performed in a steady rhythmic action, others like the flushtration should be performed with less robotic rhythm. Hesitations, quick eye contact, hand gestures in the context of the routine. Darwin Ortiz comes to mind.

Experimentation, performing in front of different audiences/ spectators, getting called out by people who notice discrepancies will teach you "over time" to make adjustments to your sleights.
It's not just the sleight it's the whole dining experience. To those that say that sleights don't fool anybody or are obvious are just looking at the applesauce.

My opinion FWIW.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
lynnef
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Re the flushtration count: YES, Darwin Ortiz does come to mind; and it's really worth watching Darwin Ortiz use it while performing Jumping Gemini. I believe he actually mentions that he doesn't particularly like the sleight; however it's necessary for the entire effect and not just one phase. When I first saw Jumping Gemini, I knew the flushtration count was being used, because I'd seen it in other tricks. However, I did NOT catch the fact that the cards were being displaced to reveal "4 kings". Overall, I was astonished that so much could be done with 4 cards. A true classic! Lynn
aabc
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IMO the flushtration count should just be a casual convincer - and probably only used once per routine while not drawing attention to it. It works great in something like Colour Monte, however, because there are so many 'changes' of the cards.
magicfish
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Bingo.
This is one of the problems with those who learn from youtube. Before they are ever fooled by the magic shop owner or by a live magician, they begin to search for speights on youtube. They see an isolated, out of context move and think, blah, that'll never fly- next!
diamondjack
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I've never been fooled by a live magician with the flustration count even when I was a child. Or the mexican turnover. Or the shapshifter change.
magicfish
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Not surprised. It was probably done in the wrong place at the wrong moment. Happens a lot.
magicfish
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Same with the Mexican Turnover. I am not expert in its use but in my opinion, the effect musnt hinge on this move. The misdirection here is psychological in that the identity of the card turned over is a foregone conclusion or possible an in-transit action whereby there is no heat on the turnover.
davidpaul$
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2019, diamondjack wrote:
I've never been fooled by a live magician with the flustration count even when I was a child. Or the mexican turnover. Or the shapshifter change.


I believe you. You are probably one of those people who is very discerning, observant, focused and has the ability to detect what most others can't. Some people just enjoy the interaction , others just focus on mechanics. That's just who you are.

In my restaurant work I encounter MANY different personalities. Some could care less about being entertained and are
He#@ bent on figuring things out, while others just want to have fun..


I welcome the discerning spectators , although frustrating at times, but it challenges me to evaluate my performances, improve on sleights, use different ones to a hooefully successful conclusion. It's a constant learning experience.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
aabc
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Re the Shapeshifter-although many smart spectators will be aware that there is a double, it is usually (and best) performed in the context of multiple productions/changes and has much greater VISUAL value, and should be a surprise, even if it doesn't fool them.
Lonnie Dilan
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You forgot to say april fools for posting something so silly.
lynnef
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Just thinking... there are many sleights we may say to ourselves, "how could people NOT see this?" Both in Jumping Gemini and Preset eg, we are shown 2 court cards for four; and yet I've never been called on it. Some folks have suggested here in the Café of using 2 jokers eg in JG; but Darwin Ortiz himself prefers to use the kings for the overall effect. In other words, the effect and performance are principle over the sleights. The sleights are necessary, yes, but the performance is what counts. What's also interesting is that these sleights that may not be foolproof go into what are considered "strong" effects from Paul Harris and Darwin Ortiz. Lynn
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