Hello:

This may have been discussed before, but I thought I'd mention it. I think it's strange how there's seems to be quite a few magicians selling DVDs because they accidently bought two sets. This seemed to never happen when videos were the only game in town (or until DVD burners have been so easy to get).

Quite a few magicians are wasting money by buying double sets these days. Anybody else notice this, or is it just me? Hmmmm.

Ron

Sometimes you get duplicates in package deals. i.e. You buy a complete set of Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights to get the package price even though you already own a volume or two.

There's also the possibility of estate sales where one of our brethren dies and we purchase their entire collection from the family which could give us videos we already own.

The third possibility, (which you only hinted at) is; --> They buy one copy, copy it for their own use and sell the original thus getting the DVD for much much cheaper and cheating the author in the process. Personally, I think this is the most common reason for the "accidental buy." It's all about integrity, some have it and some don't.

The tip-off for me is when they sell the original, minus the gaffs or accessories that came with it. Magi don't typically lose their gaffs. It does happen but the majority of us keep up with our stuff.

Hmmmm INDEED!!!

I can understand selling used books or DVDs at a discount. There is an issue about copying things and then selling the original.

I'm in the process of writing a small book. What possible encouragement could I have to proceed when folks are just making copies? Likewise, why should anyone release magic worth more than the cost of the DVD when the value of the work is not respected?

Do you want new material? Do you want any future contributions you might make to be respected?

Jonathan has hit the proberbial nail right on the proverbial head. Many people think that books are easy and cheap to produce. They also think that DVD's are easy and cheap to produce. It may be very cheap to produce a bad DVD. But good production takes time, money and equipment. A person who puts his material out to the magic public deserves to earn his money from it.

There are a lot of magical creators who have material they are not publishing or producing just because it gets knocked off so frequently.

True, that said there are also a lot of people putting out crap and selling it for the same price as the quality items. I have seen books, lectures and manuscripts for effects that were created a month ago and never audience tested. It used to be that an effect was released because it was quality, audience tested material that the creator is ready to share with the community.

I am not defending the persons that rob the creators of their due. I do think there might be a little less of this if:

1. The items put out were valued appropriately

2. The offenders were admonished for acting so unethically.

I would love to see an independant rating service for the industry. When a producer wants to market a new effect, book, video, apperatus, it could be evaluated by a body of qualified individuals and endorsed at various levels. This way the consumer would know the item being purchased was of a certain quality.

I also think the community as a whole should hold each other accountable for such unethical acts. But then that starts the whole conversation of what is ethical and unethical, so forget I brought it up.

When I buy magic in lots, Sometimes I get duplicates.

Ed, I agree!
Astinus, that does indeed happen and has happened to me as well.

Vent and soapbox warning. If you only want the bottom line of what I'm saying, I've bolded it below.

I think we do hold each other accountable. Opinions flow freely in the Good; Bad; Garbage section and personally, I've been able to avoid quite a few otherwise bad purchases. I never buy a video without asking those I trust about it and even then sometimes I'll pass because it doesn't fit my style. I've had a few friends send me their DVDs or effects just for the honest opinion. Those that know me know I don't sugar coat anything. The few things I call my own are available free here at the Café. It not about money, it's about magic.

As for the community banding together to weed out the crap, I think it happens every single day. There's really no grey area. If we don't like what we buy, we sell it, give it away or just pass it on. Whether it's good or not, when you purchase a product, you only purchase fair use and the copyrights do apply whether we like it or not. Making a copy for the library "just in case" is where the line gets crossed. Others stamp on the line by selling the same bootleg items 20 times.

When I was getting started, a friend made me copies of several of his videos to learn from. I've gone back and purchased nearly every one that I was given because it was the right thing to do. Those I haven't purchased are because I can't find them.

I do agree that quality in a $30 video is important but if I feel ripped off, the best thing I can do is let others know I feel ripped off about Video-### or Book so-and-so. Those that produce quality will readily be recognized for their work as well. It just disgusts me when people try to sell me a copy of a copy of some new video. If we don't support those that are putting out the quality product, they'll eventually stop putting out anything.

The proverbial wheel has been reinvented so many times it refuses to roll any more. It's now a candlestick, a levitating brick or invisible pull made from spandex cycling shorts. Me, I'll take the wheel.

With that off my chest, I now step down from the soapbox. Thank you for your ear and your time.

I agree with what you're saying Rod, as I have had the same basic question running through my mind...All these people are accidentally buying dupes? Hmm...

I think I find it most...let us say, curious...when it is a full set of DVD's. If you bought a collection, it seems to me, you often wouldn't get a full set. Notice, also, that very few people say how they ended up with dupes. I only see three options:

a) Estate or other collection purchased, w/dupes;
b) gifts from loving, but uninformed regarding your collection, friends and loved ones; and
c) forgetfulness.

Reviewing some of the posts about how much people seem to spend on magic, it is unlikely to me that people are very often purchasing dupes due to forgetting they had one. Most of us here seem to spend a decent chunk of change on magic...I would think most people would pay attention to that hard-earned spending.

So, I don't know...I find it reprehensible if people are getting a vid, copying it and selling the original. As was mentioned above...you don't see this happening much with books, which is also suspicious...

Hmmm...

E

Ok...I don't do this, but just a thought...I buy a dvd, copy it, and sell it to someone else. I buy a dvd and don't like it and sell it to someone else. What is the difference? The same end result. I paid money for something and then sold it to someone else. Mr. X got his money for the original sale, so what is the difference? I don't do this!!! I just want to see what your opinions on that are. I buy originals and keep them, even if they are garbage...I am a collector! Basically I am asking if one thing is better than the other, are you against selling of used goods? Just curious.

Nathan Pain

Buy a video or a DVD and copy it and then sell the origianl is againt copyright laws. The reason is that when you buy a product you can use it under what is called fair useage.

That does not include to be able to copy it for any reason. many people make what is called back up copies for themselves. Just in case something happens to the original copy. Tapes break etc...

But this to may be against the law under the copy right laws.

I have DVD products on the market and a computer that can copy a DVD. I assume that others have the same ability.

I have seen news shows that state in the news that that is what the big movie people are all up set about. is that someone can get a movie off the internet and burn it on a dvd and not have to buy it.

I just go out and buy it because DVD's are not that expensive and it is great to own the origianl product.

The point is that in magic to have the performing rights to the material. You should buy the DVD, video, book or lecture notes. Not a copy.

No...you miss my point...I know it is illegal to copy dvd's, probably even for backup...the end result of my situation...I buy a dvd from you for 50 bucks, and then I sell it to joe schmo for 25 bucks. You got your 50 bucks and are a happy man, joe schmo got a good dvd for 25 bucks because he was not willing to spend 50 bucks to get it from you. If I happen to make a copy before I sell mine to Joe, so be it...it is unethical, illegal, but the end reslut is the same...YOU WILL BE 50 BUCKS RICHER AND JOE WILL HAVE GOTTEN A GOOD DEAL! If the FBI comes knocking on my door, that is something I will just have to deal with!

And again, I reiterate, I do not do this, I keep everytinhg I buy, and I do not sell bootleg copies! I see your point, but the end result is the same!

Nathan Pain

p.s. a little of topic but it kind of ties in. I bought Pure Effect from Harry Murphy here at The Café. If he bought it brand new H&R got their 40 bucks. He sold it to me for 30 bucks (a great deal), but not before he read and studied the book (made a copy in his brain). Is this illegal? Can he never use anything he learned from that book in his material?

The problem with all this riaa stuff and whatnot is that they have bad aim. The used business is the true theif. They can sell the same cd or dvd a million times and the artist gets no more money from that piece of product. I buy a dvd used and then sell it back to the same store who then sells it again! Who is the real theif?

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Nathan Pain

Taking a similar tact as Nathan,

What If I buy a book, sell the book, then publish a 'variation' of one of the tricks in the book?

BTW: 'fare use' is an interesting expression.

The real thief might be the guy who taught me how to spell theif.

Nathan Pain

I think the point you bring up is what keeps e-bay in business. I do not think that there is a law that says that you can't re-sell a product that you purchaced after you grow tired of it.

The sticky part would be to make a copy and then sell the origianl. Of cours everyone in here knows this.... It could happen and may have happenned.

If it were done often - I think that would fit into that the government would call blackmarket or bootleg marketing.

I would not think that that would be a good idea.

Everything's relative. The company I work for erroneously bought a second $183,000 water chiller for an air conditioning system in a building in another city. When I needed a new one for my building, guess where I looked first! Makes me look great on the budget!

It's harder to store, however, than a duplicate DVD...

Amos McCormick

This a victimless crime...selling the original is no crime...no one is hurt by the events that I layed out...if I am wrong prove me wrong...therein lies my point.

Nathan Pain

p.s. Glenn, unless I missed something in this topic, no one is talking about buying copies of anything, except you.

The point is that if someone makes a copy then sells the original, then they now have a bootleg copy which is illegal. You can't buy a DVD or video then make a bootleg copy for yourself and sell the original. It would be the same as you buying a copy that someone else made. Now if you destroy the copy then sell the original that is ok.

Micheal,
I'm arguing the end result...not what is or isn't illegal. If I choose to smoke weed and get busted that is my choice not yours. Same idea here, if I choose to make a copy and sell, that is my choice but I am not taking money out of anyone's pockets.

Once again for the people who don't read all replys, I do not do what I am arguing about, but like to make both sides of the coin seen!

Nathan Pain

p.s. Rob Eubank also mentions copies being sold, my bad, Glenn!

p.s.s. I don't smoke weed, kids stay off the drugs and stay in school!

p.s.s.s Mike, those two things are not the same.

You are taking money out of the pockets of the magicians who produce the material.

PS Those 2 things are pretty darn close to being the same.

No I'm not...let me copy and paste for you to re-read.

"No...you miss my point...I know it is illegal to copy dvd's, probably even for backup...the end result of my situation...I buy a dvd from you for 50 bucks, and then I sell it to joe schmo for 25 bucks. You got your 50 bucks and are a happy man, joe schmo got a good dvd for 25 bucks because he was not willing to spend 50 bucks to get it from you. If I happen to make a copy before I sell mine to Joe, so be it...it is unethical, illegal, but the end reslut is the same...YOU WILL BE 50 BUCKS RICHER AND JOE WILL HAVE GOTTEN A GOOD DEAL! If the FBI comes knocking on my door, that is something I will just have to deal with!"

That is my main point...Glenn would be no poorer for what I did in that example..prove me wrong!

Nathan Pain

p.s. Mike thanks for joining in, I love a stimulating discussion.