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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts 
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Quote: Their surviving friends and relatives might appreciate knowing that not everyone else turned their heads, pretending not to hear or see.On Jun 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 14, 2019, magicfish wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/j......hashoggi You know, just an interview...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Indeed they would. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote: There is really only one historical document one needs to read to understand how the world has worked since World War II with regard to national security and that is Reinhard Gehlen's CIA file. As early as 1942 Reinhard Gehlen foresaw what was coming and said Germany's defeat in World War II would be followed by the emergence of two great power blocs headed by Russia and America, that countries, nationalism and the like would no longer be of any real importance. So it came to be when Reinhard Gehlen's plan was accepted at the end of the war. Yet we still speak of this country and that in this regard as if countries, nationalism and the like, are of real importance. Iran is in the power bloc headed by Russia and we are in the other bloc and so that is why we are waging a cold war with Iran. Who's side is Assange on: that is the question. If he had only exposed the crimes of the power bloc headed by Russia then he would be a hero to our bloc. You are either with us or you are against us: no you cannot be neutral in this game. Such is life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Q3ADnJKpY
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 18, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote: The slope is all downhill towards other nations. We have no obligation to obey the laws of enemy states. Clearly they feel the same about us. Quote:
On Jun 18, 2019, landmark wrote: Judging by the slanted rhetorical nature of your question, I assume you think it's morally permissible to commit crimes in pursuit of greater crimes.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, Mr Salk wrote: And yet somehow he will say it is reprehensible when the government commits crimes in the pursuit of greater crimes. (I happen to think it is wrong on all accounts to do so.)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, tommy wrote: *** right. And guess what? He's against us. But I would still see him brought to justice by the Russians if he was caught stealing their state secrets. |
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Papa Legba Special user home-an unremarkable spiral arm of an insignificant galaxy 750 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, magicfish wrote: Yes, and they have had a secret base on the dark side of the moon since WW2, watch out.
Use the FORCE Luke.
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, magicfish wrote: I suspect Assange's allegiance is only to himself. The US just happened to have ripe-fruit.
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, Mr Salk wrote: Of course. Assange's motives were personal fame and fortune. Which is fine. Until you commit crimes to attain it. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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A UN independent investigation has just found that there is evidence that the crown prince of Saudi Arabia was responsible for the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/j......hashoggi
Any wikileaks on Crimea or Latin American policy?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, tommy wrote: And? |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Quote:
If he had only exposed the crimes of the power bloc headed by Russia then he would be a hero to our bloc. https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=russia Quote:
Crimea... https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=crimea Quote:
Latin America policy? https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=latin+america+policy Thousands of files on all of the above for the searching. That's what it's for.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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So let's get to what the matter is.
Do you believe landmark that governments should have secrets? Do you believe it should be a crime to expose said secrets? No diatribes but please the very simple questions of if government is allowed to keep secrets. Because THIS is the heart of the matter. If they are allowed to do so AND it is criminal behavior to expose them then it is a simple thing. Now don't get too far down the road of "the government is committing crimes" because that is an excuse for the behavior. We can discuss how to deal with war criminality in and of itself later after I see what your position is on simply having secrets and the punishment for exposing said secrets. And by the way "the government should hold no secrets" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Thanks, Danny. I appreciate your getting down to actual issues.
A couple of premises about the world: 1. Governments--all governments--lie constantly. They do so in the service of the class that runs the country. 2. The first rule of any bureaucracy, institution, or agency is CYA- Cover Your Backside. That's also the second and third rule as well. 3. Items 1 and 2 would not be a problem for a dictatorship or totalitarian society. But they become uniquely troubling in a society that wants to run as a democracy. Because democracy requires informed consent and decision making. That can't happen if a significant portion of information is covered up or hidden from the general populace. So I view the claim for the necessity for secrecy very very skeptically. Not saying it might not in some rare cases be necessary, but I start out viewing the supposed need very very skeptically. Because "secrecy" is the perfect out for #1 and #2 isn't it? So I believe that 99.999% of classified material is BS. It's either there to CYA, avoid embarrassment, just plain bureaucratic habit, or to allow someone to act in ways contrary to the interests of the general public. In extreme cases. it's to hide gross violations of the fundamental legal underpinnings of the State. Certainly anything that's classified as less than Top Secret is BS. Probably anything really earth-shaking is not even within the classification system. Is there anything I think a govt needs to keep secret? Well it should keep the nuclear trigger codes secret (but how about working to get rid of the need for such weapons in the first place? Reagan and Gorbachev almost had a deal...but I digress). And I don't think anyone needs to share any info about the critical mass of uranimum needed to cause fission to start, or the details of other terrible weapons (again, let's work for ways to obviate the need for them). Maybe some other things, not many. Not for a democracy. it's different for an Empire, admittedly. So that said, given the exceptions, I'm skeptical. And I'm even more skeptical about how the laws are applied. Because it's clear that neither Snowden nor Assange revealed anything that fell in the above category. Even the Secretary of Defense at the time admitted that Snowden's revelations were not damaging to the military. What they revealed to the public (didn't sell, which makes a prior comment about Assange's motivation being money, obviously false) was profoundly embarrassing and revelatory of the perjury of members of the government. James Clapper brazenly lied to Congress about the nature of his law-breaking, and lied to the Congressional committee which was charged to provide oversight of his actions. Meanwhile, for his perjury, crickets. So Snowden's and Assanges's actions fall squarely within #1 and #2. They love to say this has done irreparable harm, blah, blah, blah, but of course what else would they say when they have been caught lying? If there has been irreparable harm, then where is it?? They will have a very real problem proving that there was irreparable harm. Assange didn't sell nuclear tech to the Saudis or Pakistan. Of course, because of the embarrassment and perjury, they will attempt to twist the facts into claiming irreparable harm. But we all know that's a lie. Government officials leak "secrets" anytime they like to far less outcry. So sorry for the length of this, but I thought it was important to flesh out why I feel the way I do. My tl;dr summary would be this: 99% of official secrets are BS. When journalists release classified documents to the public as opposed to selling them privately to third parties, it's evident right away as to whether they are in the public interest or endangering many lives. So I think a government has to show a very very high standard of harm caused if they wish to prosecute a journalist. If a democracy has no mechanism for prying secrets from the cloud of official secrets than it can't be a democracy. That's what journalists are for.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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OK what about a secret that keeps people safe such as identity?
Oh and do YOU have secrets? If a government can not have things THEY want to keep secret how can YOU claim things to be secret in service to yourself? So do you think that ONLY our government should not have secrets or that EVERY government should not have secrets? See even if you believe OUR government should not have them how can you tell others to not have them? Forget Utopia. I am telling you that your 99% figure is just ridiculous. Yes there ARE things that should not be so kept, but it is not 99% or anywhere near. While YOU may not see the need for them in your world view, that in no way means in the world as it IS there is no need to have them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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The heart of our discussion is not governments, secrets, or spies. We know gentlemen don't read eachothers mail so they have staff who do such things very well. And a secretary who will disavow any knowledge of the operation if things go badly. Got it. And sometimes domestic wire-tapping is done by legal means using warrants to get that set up. We also claim to disapprove of such policies as East Germany used and China currently has in place to monitor their civilian population.
It's when the third and fourth party agencies are brokering computer malware, data collection services and training to interested parties that someone felt a whistle needed to blow. It's when cell phone towers are rigged to collect data (like we care whether its stingray or something else?) and that data made available to third parties without warrant that someone blew the whistle. It's not being naive about collateral damage during a war. It's when that happens and the combatants are treating their actions as if they are playing "grand theft auto" and blatant disrespect to the lives of known journalists in the area that someone felt a need to share some of the video. That smell, it's not coffee. This is not an episode of Get Smart. And we're the ones losing our moral high-ground.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote: Like Ms. Plame? Quote:
Oh and do YOU have secrets? If a government can not have things THEY want to keep secret how can YOU claim things to be secret in service to yourself? This I'm surprised to hear from you. Surely as a conservative you understand that in a democracy, it's the government which must be transparent and the individual whose privacy rights must be protected. Or what are we even talking about? Quote:
So do you think that ONLY our government should not have secrets or that EVERY government should not have secrets? See even if you believe OUR government should not have them how can you tell others to not have them? You're right, I can't tell other governments what to do. Only my own. But I sure don't complain when Russian, Chinese, Saudi, etc. secrets are uncovered. There's an incredible moment going on in Brazil as we speak, due to journalist Glenn Greenwald (who lives in Brazil) printing out some incredible documents about corruption in the Bolsanaro government. It basically details how the govt bribed a Supreme Court judge to put the former President of Brazil, Lula, into prison and thus deprive him of the right to run against Bolsanaro in the election. Of course Bolsanaro is now personally threatening Greenwald and his husband Councilman David Miranda with all kinds of things. This is in a place where people get disappeared. So while I have no say about other countries I cheer Greenwald. Others might frown that he revealed some secrets. Quote:
I am telling you that your 99% figure is just ridiculous. Yes there ARE things that should not be so kept, but it is not 99% or anywhere near. Well, of course no one can know the actual figure, but here's an article that suggests that Top Secret classification falls to about 10% of classified docs. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000......ial.html
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Jon, non-governmental third-party sharing of data is obviously a concern, a huge concern--but that doesn't obviate the need to grapple with the direct violation of privacy rights by governments. And someone should be starting a thread about the Facebook Libra thing. That's about the spookiest thing I've heard in a long time.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Posted: Jun 19, 2019 03:49 pm 
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