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S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
. . . I am merely pointing out that you cam not [prove that psychic phenomena do not exist].

To be fair, your claim went way beyond merely pointing out that one cannot prove that psychic phenomena do not exist.

Your claim is that [nobody] can prove a negative.

That's an extraordinary claim. I'd like to see the proof of that claim.

On the more narrow refinement that you're now proposing, I'd like to see the proof that nobody can prove that psychic phenomena do not exist.
tommy
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What I am now claiming is just what I was claiming in the first place:

Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
One cannot prove a negative. Searching for and not finding psychic phenomena does not mean psychic phenomena does not exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence however and those claiming to have psychic powers are making extraordinary claims.


That followed your comment stating, “You stated that it can be put to bed by proof that psychic phenomena exist? I merely pointed out that it can also be put to bed by proof that they don't.”

I am claiming this context that it cannot also be put to bed because it is negative and thus cannot be proved.

If you think it can be put it bed then put up.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
What I am now claiming is just what I was claiming in the first place:

Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
One cannot prove a negative. Searching for and not finding psychic phenomena does not mean psychic phenomena does not exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence however and those claiming to have psychic powers are making extraordinary claims.


That followed your comment stating, “You stated that it can be put to bed by proof that psychic phenomena exist? I merely pointed out that it can also be put to bed by proof that they don't.”

I am claiming this context that it cannot also be put to bed because it is negative and thus cannot be proved.

If you think it can be put it bed then put up.

You misunderstand me.

I'm not saying that I believe that it's possible to prove that psychic phenomena do not exist.

I'm saying that if you do prove that they don't exist, that will put an end to the argument. Do you believe that that is not true? That is, do you believe that if someone manages to prove that psychic phenomena do not exist it won't put an end to the arguing (at least by people who are intelligent enough to understand the proof)?

You, on the other hand, continue to assert that it is impossible to prove that psychic phenomena do not exist.

I'd like to see your proof of that impossibility.
tommy
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"One cannot prove a negative" is a negative itself and asking me to prove it is nice.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
"One cannot prove a negative" is a negative itself and asking me to prove it is nice.

You're the one who stated that the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

You're the one making the claim. I's certainly not my fault that you chose to make a claim in the negative.
tommy
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You're the one who thinks you can prove a negative and so you prove it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
You're the one who thinks you can prove a negative and so you prove it.

You don't know whether I think that or not, and I have no burden of proof because I haven't made a claim.

You made the claim that proving a negative is impossible. You asserted that the person making the claim bears the burden of proof.

Stop trying to fob that responsibility onto me.

Truly, tommy: I expected much better of you than this.
tommy
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My claim is that one cannot prove a negative and as that is a negative and one can not prove it then it only goes to show that I am correct. Since you don't know what you think, then what makes you think otherwise?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
My claim is that one cannot prove a negative and as that is a negative and one can not prove it then it only goes to show that I am correct.

It shows nothing of the sort.

If you cannot prove it, then please stop making the claim. For all you know, it's false.

Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote:
Since you don't know what you think, then what makes you think otherwise?

I don't know where you got the idea that I don't know what I think, but I assure you that I do.
tommy
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You think that I do not know what you think, so who knows what you think and who does not?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
A statement that psychic phenomena do not exist is most certainly a statement that they cannot be proven to exist.




I disagree. My current position on the status of psychic phenomena (that it has yet to be demonstrated) is not a declaration that it cannot ever be proven to exist.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, R.S. wrote:

So what you’re trying to do here is to conflate my statements about Cayce’s outrageous predictions with his method of delivering the predictions/diagnoses.

Uh, noooooooooo. I was specifically NOT conflating the two. Ground zero for the conflation occurred here:

Quote:
On Apr 14, 2019, R.S. wrote:

If you really think that modern western medicine is no better than some guy without a formal education beyond grammar school (who predicted Atlantean death rays and Armageddon) delivering diagnoses from a sleep-like “trance”, then I feel sorry for you.

Ron


See how you are adding death rays and Armageddon to a simple statement that both Cayce and modern corporate medicine share a commonality in how they dispense their medicine.



And that’s why the Atlantean death rays are in PARENTHESIS! Here, I CLEARLY said that he delivers diagnoses “from a sleep-like trance.” But for some reason you are misconstruing my insertion of historical trivia with his actual methods. YOU are the one adding death rays and Armageddon to his methods – not me!

You also took my other comment about Cayce and equated it with modern medicine by stating that modern medicine “employs the current corporate medical practice of throwing out many predictions (and prescriptions in his case) and counted on the fact that people would remember the occasional hit and forget all the misses.”

Are you backing off of that now? If not, then:

Would you rather be treated by someone like Cayce or by a modern science-based MD?


Quote:
Quote:
...you’ve indicated that you think the methods used by both are virtually identical.


Show me where I said they were “virtually identical”. Or better yet, show me what I said which you have misinterpreted to mean “virtually identical”.


I didn't say you said virtually identical - I said you indicated it (by the context of your posts). You yourself said that you don’t deny equating Cayce’e method with modern medicine’s method when on the second page of the thread you said:
“No, why would I deny it?”

And if you “equate” one thing with another, you consider them to be the same. I.E. “virtually identical.”


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
tommy
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The burden of proof is on he who makes the claim. The burden of proof is not normally on the accused because he cannot prove the negative that did not commit the offense. The exception to the rule is in strict liability cases, where the accused is required to prove a positive: he might have to prove that he has a license for example and the prosecution is not required to prove the negative that he does not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
A statement that psychic phenomena do not exist is most certainly a statement that they cannot be proven to exist.

I disagree.

Then you're wrong.

Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, R.S. wrote:
My current position on the status of psychic phenomena (that it has yet to be demonstrated) is not a declaration that it cannot ever be proven to exist.

Nor did I say that it was.

But a statement that something has yet to be demonstrated is not remotely the same as a statement that it doesn't exist.

If something doesn't exist, you cannot prove that it does.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
The burden of proof is on he who makes the claim.

I agree 100%.

And you keep making the claim that one cannot prove a negative. By your very admission here, the burden of proof of that statement is on you.

Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
The burden of proof is not normally on the accused because he cannot prove the negative that did not commit the offense. The exception to the rule is in strict liability cases, where the accused is required to prove a positive: he might have to prove that he has a license for example and the prosecution is not required to prove the negative that he does not.

This isn't a criminal proceeding. The rules of court procedure have no place here.
TomBoleware
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If something doesn't exist, you can’t see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, prove it, or do ANYTHING with it. It’s simply not there.

Or so I would think.

Tom
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Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, R.S. wrote:
And that’s why the Atlantean death rays are in PARENTHESIS! Here, I CLEARLY said that he delivers diagnoses “from a sleep-like trance.” But for some reason you are misconstruing my insertion of historical trivia with his actual methods. YOU are the one adding death rays and Armageddon to his methods – not me!

The VERY THINLY VEILED use of parenthesis isn’t fooling anyone. You increased the proximity of that statement for the exact purpose of increasing your hoped effect on the conjoined statement. You brought them together for that specific purpose. You combined the two claims in one sentence for that specific purpose. YOU purposefully conflated. I simply inflated your conflate. (Phew, that’s a long way to go for some alliteration fun.)

Quote:
Quote:
You also took my other comment about Cayce and equated it with modern medicine by stating that modern medicine “employs the current corporate medical practice of throwing out many predictions (and prescriptions in his case) and counted on the fact that people would remember the occasional hit and forget all the misses.”

Are you backing off of that now?

No, I am not. What ever gave you that idea?


Quote:
And if you “equate” one thing with another, you consider them to be the same. I.E. “virtually identical.

I see the problem here. Are you aware that there is more than one generally accepted definition for the word “equate”?

“to state the equality of or between; put in the form of an equation: to equate growing prosperity with the physical health of a nation.”
From https://www.dictionary.com/browse/equate

Would you say that in the above definition example the dictionary is stating that growing prosperity and the physical health of a nation are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL or is it that they share a certain commonality on which they can be compared, or equated?
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
the accused ... cannot prove the negative that did not commit the offense.

OJ would argue this point with you.
Smile Smile Smile
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
. . . because [the accused] cannot prove the negative that [he] did not commit the offense.

This isn't universally true. Sometimes the accused can prove that he did not commit the offense. This goes by the technical name of an alibi.
tommy
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An alibi merely raises a reasonable doubt if he is lucky and it does not prove he did not commit the offense and if he did this goes by the technical name of a false alibi.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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