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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote: Nevertheless, inquiring minds want to know: which do you prefer: sushi or sashimi? |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, Cliffg37 wrote: Thanks for the link, Cliff. It’s a pretty thorough piece. Generally speaking, if you want undiluted, actual science, you are going to read pretty dull stuff, agreed! I see lots of investigation into stress release techniques, but still nothing about placebos. I will keep digging. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, S2000magician wrote: Sushi, because my experience with sashimi is you get too much of a specific fish, whereas with sushi you get a couple bites then it’s on to the next fish, sea creature, anything but uni. This opinion, however, is non scientific and was not derived from a null theory. |
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Cliffg37 Inner circle Long Beach, CA 2491 Posts |
OK, one more. This is an easy read from again, a reputable journal.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306437.php Somewhat vague, it does make a connection between the placebo effect and stress.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right! |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
That is a pretty good broad view of placebos, their study, and their acceptance. They have even started referring to sugar pills as a drug! Well, actually we probably should consider sugar as a drug, considering the nearly instantaneous effects it has one’s state of being.
“Placebos are extraordinary drugs. They seem to have some effect on almost every symptom known to mankind, and work in at least a third of patients and sometimes in up to 60 percent. They have no serious side-effects and cannot be given in overdose. In short, they hold the prize for the most adaptable, protean, effective, safe and cheap drugs in the world's pharmacopeia." How much do you want to bet that in the past such placebo success claims would be dismissed as supernatural fairy tales... snake oil, And now science has apparently found evidence that indeed placebos do work. That’s an interesting thing about science and in particular a certain group of its devoted defenders. Once something which seems supernatural and indeed is mocked as quackery becomes validated by science, all of a sudden it is no longer supernatural. It is “science”! Which puts a spotlight on why science will never find supernatural phenomenon. But back to the cool article you linked. It discusses a lot more than “The Placebo effect does little more than reduce stress.” Perhaps your statement was a bit overzealous given the mood of this thread. |
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Cliffg37 Inner circle Long Beach, CA 2491 Posts |
As a scientist, I am never overzealous.
As a magician, I am known to be. LOL.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right! |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Well played, Cliff!
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, S2000magician wrote: I disagree. It’s not a statement that psychic phenomena CANNOT be proven to exist. Rather, it has YET to be demonstrated to exist. Besides, any real phenomena will be demonstrated to be true with proper testing (and peer review) regardless of any preconceived notions of the testers. And again, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. And, as I pointed out, after decades of robust investigation, there has been NO conclusive unambiguous and replicable evidence in support of psychic phenomena. Now PERSONALLY, I take that fact as evidence that it doesn’t exist. But… I am not opposed to further testing. And I certainly will accept a mainstream scientific consensus that it is real if and when that happens. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote: So what you’re trying to do here is to conflate my statements about Cayce’s outrageous predictions with his method of delivering the predictions/diagnoses . Please stop doing that. And stay on topic. You said: “As far as Cayce, he (probably unwittingly) employed the current corporate medical practice of throwing out many predictions (and prescriptions in his case) and counted on the fact that people would remember the occasional hit and forget all the misses.” And now that you’ve admitted that you are indeed equating Cayce’s methods with modern medical methods, my question is: For a serious or semi-serious condition… Would you rather be treated by someone like Cayce or by a modern science-based MD? It’s relevant because you’ve indicated that you think the methods used by both are virtually identical. Regarding your last paragraph, yes, of course. I agree. To clarify, my statement was MY take on it rather than a scientific pronouncement (although I’m willing to bet that mainstream science would tend to agree with me). I should have made that clearer, but I didn’t. Sorry for that. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote: I agree 100% that we need more and better education about science. And I think it’s also important that, as the saying goes, we keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Apr 17, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote: You seem to be missing the point. It’s not that placebos do work (we’ve known that for a long time now), it’s that in controlled trials they reveal that many alternative practices are ineffective. Placebos are instrumental as a CONTROL in testing the efficacy of a particular drug or treatment. If those drugs/treatments work no better than a placebo in a randomized controlled trail, they are therefore deemed ineffective in and of themselves. This is how we know that acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, therapeutic touch, and many other alternative practices are indeed “quackery”. That being said, I think the physiological effect of placebos is fascinating and worthy of more study. And of course, they’re indispensable in ferreting out interventions that don’t actually work. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
People, or rather some people, have known about suggestion and have practiced it in various ways down through the ages. There is course a great difference between individuals in regard to their suggestibility and circumstances matter. People who are drowsy are more open to suggestion it seems: You are going backwards into the darkness, your eyes are getting heavy and so on. Like hypnosis, placebos work better on some than others. Some are more willing to believe nonsense than others and so on. Mass propaganda is aimed at the masses and does not have to work on everybody. For commercial reasons, one has to reach a broad audience but not everyone will be a fan. Certain medicines do not work the same on everybody. Is it or is it not an exact science?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 18, 2019, R.S. wrote: A statement that psychic phenomena do not exist is most certainly a statement that they cannot be proven to exist. You cannot prove something that is false. Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, R.S. wrote: I never suggested otherwise. You stated that it can be put to bed by proof that psychic phenomena exist. I merely pointed out that it can also be put to bed by proof that they don't. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
One cannot prove a negative. Searching for and not finding psychic phenomena does not mean psychic phenomena does not exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence however and those claiming to have psychic powers are making extraordinary claims.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote: I hear that a lot. Especially here. Do you have proof of that claim? |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Prove psychic phenomena does not exist since you claim it can be done.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 18, 2019, tommy wrote: I never made such a claim. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
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On Apr 18, 2019, R.S. wrote: Uh, noooooooooo. I was specifically NOT conflating the two. Ground zero for the conflation occurred here: Quote:
On Apr 14, 2019, R.S. wrote: See how you are adding death rays and Armageddon to a simple statement that both Cayce and modern corporate medicine share a commonality in how they dispense their medicine. Quote:
...you’ve indicated that you think the methods used by both are virtually identical. Show me where I said they were “virtually identical”. Or better yet, show me what I said which you have misinterpreted to mean “virtually identical”. Quote:
Regarding your last paragraph, yes, of course. I agree. To clarify, my statement was MY take on it rather than a scientific pronouncement (although I’m willing to bet that mainstream science would tend to agree with me). I should have made that clearer, but I didn’t. Sorry for that. Apology accepted. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
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On Apr 18, 2019, R.S. wrote: Actually, I MADE the point. It was my comment to Cliff. My point. And it’s not about what you or anybody else thinks placebos do or don’t do. It’s about what I said. THAT is the point. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If you could have proved that psychic phenomena does not exist it would have shown that you can prove a negative and I am merely pointing out that you cam not. It is only possible to prove psychic phenomena exits by producing evidence of it. If you claim that you can see a ghost and say look there it is, we can not prove that there is no ghost, it is up to prove it there.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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