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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts 
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Hi People,
This is the method where you remove one card from the top of the deck and display it, under cover of which you get a break under the *new* single top card, and then lay the original top card back on the deck. At this point you have a break under the top two cards. I read about the method in Card College. Michael Ammar uses this method to great effect in his handling of Chicago Opener in Easy to Master Card Miracles. I've had a bit of a breakthrough in getting a quick break under one card at the top of the deck. Great happiness! But here's my problem. The thumb and most of the fingers of my left hand are on top of the deck in order to maintain and conceal the break under one card, and I don't see how to replace the card that I'm displaying back on top of the deck in a natural way. Honestly, I don't even know what "natural" would mean in this context -- how often in ordinary life, outside of magic, does one take a card off the deck and drop it back on? And I don't see how to get the top card back on the deck without slipping it under my thumb, which seems even more unnatural. Giobbi doesn't offer advice on this, and Ammar goes through the move too fast for me to follow, so I'd be grateful for any advice people could offer. A bit of background: some of you know that the DL has been a bugaboo for me for a long time. My hit DL is pretty good, but not consistent enough, and I'm still struggling with getting a break under two cards (and believe me, I've tried a lot of methods), so the Houdin solution seems perfect -- especially since it's Chicago Opener that I want to use the sleight for. Thanks, folks! Regards, Bob |
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts
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Please show us what you do. With words, it's hard to understand and there may be more problems (like, perhaps you don't hold the deck "properly").
P! |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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I've put up a video at https://youtu.be/z5N_l-MK2ow.
Bob |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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P. S.: I reviewed my video before I put it up, and I have to say that it was a bit of an unpleasant revelation -- it's clear that I have more practice ahead of me if I'm going to handle cards fluently. I bring this up because I don't want people to feel reluctant to respond for fear of insulting me. I'd rather not be shouted at
 , but I've gotten lots and lots of highly beneficial constructive criticism in various aspects of my life (teaching, piano, poetry-writing...) over the years, and it doesn't bother me.
I'm actually glad that I made the video, because it made it clear to me that I need to record myself more and see what my handling really looks like! I tend to get ahead of myself in my excitement. Thanks, everybody. Bob |
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts
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I feel you hold the deck very much forward. When I hold mine, the thumb and index almost touch.
Regarding putting the card back, what you do at 1:22 is the idea. Just practice it more until it looks like you don't care. It's the same thing as if you didn't have a break (which is exactly what we want and what it should look like). Cheers, P! |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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Thanks, Ado, for taking the time to look at the video and make suggestions -- much appreciated. I'll work on the things you noted.
Regards, Bob |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Arguably the most important thing is to have a legitimate reason for lifting the card off and then putting it back. "You'll notice something different about one card." Lift it off. "It's got a different-coloured back. And you, Steve, you could have touched any card you wanted, right?" They say yes. Look concerned, set the card back. "Now, Steve, we talked about this. This is show-business. Stand up straight and with a clear voice answer the question, you could have touched ANY card you wanted, right?" They say yes. "And what was the card?" Complete the effect.
Obviously, replace the patter to whatever suits you. Also, replace Steve. He's not doing you any favours.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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Thanks, TBK. I've actually given some thought to this. Have spectator tap the deck with a red straw (magic wand) while they chant a spell to make the card reveal itself. Then, when a red card turns up, take off the top card, showing the red back, and say, in a mock-accusatory tone, "Is this yours?" Then, "Was that intentional, turning a card red? Then, "Can I see your wand for a moment?" That's my excuse to put the card back on the deck: I have to reach for the wand. Then: "I wonder if the red wand influenced you to turn your card red." Give wand back to spectator. Turn over card to show that it's the spectator's.
...Something like that. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Bob G, sometimes we all are guilty of overthinking things. I know I am. I tried to look at your video and couldn't for some reason. My iPad doesn't want to cooperate. I will try from my PC tomorrow. You seem to be making a big deal out of a pretty simple thing. Getting a break is easy. Just drop your arm to your side and push the top card over slightly to the right. Then immediately pull it back flush but push up slightly with your pinky. The pressure from your thumb on top should keep the front of the deck square. With practice you can reduce the amount of push-over required. Also with practice you will not have to drop your arm, but you're able to do it with minimal cover. Practice until you can maintain a very small break. It doesn't need to be very big. If your thumb is across the deck and you have to place a card under it, then it would be natural to lift it out of the way. Why does that action bother you? If you treat it as unimportant the audience likely will too.
The Alex Pandrea video is a good resource. I believe it is on his youtube channel. He basically details the same mechanics Ron Bauer uses for his pushoff double. Good luck!
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Aaron Fisher uses this technique and he teaches it as well. Look it up and I think you'll find very clear concise instruction on precisely what you are looking for Bob.
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Bob, I did see the video. I agree with Ado. You hold the deck forward and a bit low. You can work on bringing it back a bit and also raising it up a little. There is no rule that says you must hold the same grip for all of your routines. If at some point you want to experiment with false deals, then a mechanic's grip is typical, but that isn't necessary here. You need to practice securing the break invisibly. holding a card in front as a screen isn't going to be angle-proof. So do something else. Turn sideways and do it as your body swings. Or drop to the side as I suggested. Especially if you are standing.
Remember what I said about the break not having to be too large. You can get by with a flesh break. You, in the process of the video demo figured out that you were flashing the break at the front. Watch too the actual turnover itself. The first one you did had a lot of separation. The cards weren't aligned exactly. Not suggesting you not keep at it, but if you want to try another method and see if it works for you, the Natural Lift from The Card Classics of Ken Krenzel by Harry Lorayne is worth studying. It requires no break, has built-in cover and is as natural as you can get.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1947 Posts
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Some good advice here.
I don't use this in my own work, but if I were, I would try to take advantage by pushing the second card at the same time I push the top one. This is not a move, just a natural thing to happen. I'd then show the top card around and simultaneously bring my left hand down while pulling back the new top card to obtain a break. Perfect misdirection and economy of actions. You could also delay when you take the break. Your left hand is down and the new top card is still slightly projecting on the right. In the action of bringing your left hand back up, get the break and deposit the original top card on top. This minimise the time you have to keep a break. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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Thanks to all of you: magicfish, Tortuga, and Claudio. I'm so glad Ado encouraged me to post a video -- there are clearly some basic things I need to adjust. I'm finding it very awkward to hold the deck farther back in my hand. I hope that will change with practice.
The small amount of performing I've done so far, for friends and family, I've done seated -- it feels less like a performance, and thus minimizes stage fright. Tortuga, I have the Krenzel/Lorayne book and will look up the natural lift; also the Pandrea video. And I appreciate your taking the time to watch the video and comment on it. Magicfish, do you have a reference for Fisher's explanation? He has lots and lots of interesting youtube videos, and I know he wrote The Paper Engine. I've been avoiding buying the latter because I had the impression it was way too advanced for me. Claudio, you brought your usual imaginative thinking and clear prose to my question. Lots to think about here. One of my colleagues likes to say that "Virtue is its own punishment." In the not too distant future you folks will be punished for your generosity: I've been working intensively on the Elmsley Count, and plan to put up a video for people to critique. I *think* I'm doing pretty well, but I'll be grateful for any suggestions for adjustments or complete overhauls. Bob
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Quote:
On May 13, 2019, Bob G wrote: The Elsmsley or Ghost Count is very easy to mess up. Rhythm is key. Strive for a regular rhythm in the count, 1...2...3...4. Many practitioners end up going 1.....2..3..4, telegraphing that "something" happened on the count of the second card. Which of course it did. No bueno. Also important is the grip. There are several ways to grip the cards including the fingertip grip and the dealers grip. Which are you practicing?
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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De acuerdo -- ¡no bueno! I haven't yet tried practicing with a metronome. I'll certainly do that before I put up a video. I'm mostly practicing moving the cards from my right hand to my left hand; right hand holds lower left corner in pinch grip, and left hand takes card into dealer's grip (as taught by Ian Kendall in Basic Training, lybrary).
But I've also been working on two other techniques. One, taught by Montier in his Elmsley Count project, is the same as what I described, but with the pinch grip near middle of right edge of card. Another is José de la Torre's handling, which moves the cards from RH dealer's grip to LH *something* -- dealer's grip more or less, I guess. From his book Real Magic. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Quote:
On May 13, 2019, Bob G wrote: Personally, I would pick just one, the one you feel most comfortable with and looks best. The first one you describe is basically the one I use. I was taught to freeze the RH, the LH moves back-and-forth gripping the cards in dealer's grip. It works for me.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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Thanks, Tortuga -- yes, I'm freeing the the right hand as you describe. When I'm ready I'll put up a video of just the first one.
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kaubell New user 90 Posts
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If theres no need specifically to do it like that, then theres easy solution.
You can do what ever you want. Cards are just paper. You can do what ever with them. Throw them, slide them, drop them, rip them. Theres no sleights, theres no moves. Its just physical reality how we handle the cards. With moves, you have to look for rules, author tips, all that. With physical reality, its is easy because the solution is common sense. The glitter of "magic move" is gone, and its just pure physical reality. Theres no questions how you place card on top of the deck in physical reality, because theres so many answers. Slide it from front, from back, page turn it like DL, drop it, grab it, throw it. Do anything you want. You only need to get break under 2 cards and that's what matters. Be careless about the sensitivity of card magic and its secrecy and all that, your mind is locking you up more than reality. The developement is too slow if you get stuck how to place card on top of the deck. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Quote: On May 15, 2019, kaubell wrote:
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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I'm with Tortuga on this one. I'm more than a bit of a nonconformist myself, kaubell, but I don't believe in nonconformity for its own sake. How many of us would even have *thought* to do something like an Elmsley Count if Alex Elmsley hadn't given his count to us. And even he based his work on counts that others had devised. After that, lots of smart, dedicated people put a lot of thought into different ways to make the EC elegant, (or sloppy if that's what they preferred), and deceptive.
From another angle: I want to do a craftsmanlike job. Details matter. |
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Posted: May 11, 2019 09:13 pm 
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