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Dannydoyle
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On Jun 26, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
I’ve never liked the fail your way to success plan.Smile

I agree that nothing takes the place of experience, but that doesn’t mean you can’t learn from others experiences. There are plenty of success recipes out there to follow.
Those who keep doing the same mistakes again and again are stupid. There is a better way to pay your dues. If you want to learn faster, then learn from others mistakes.
If you want to learn from your own mistakes you can do it but it will take lots of time from your life. I see many young people doing well that don’t have years and years
of direct experience; they got there by avoiding mistakes, not making them. Learning to avoid mistakes will take you much further than experiencing them.

Tom


This is certainly your opinion. Thank you for proving my point.

I just saw a guy on Facebook who said "fake it til you make it " is garbage and bad advice. FACE it til you make it is the why to go. Get up, work hard, fail and stand back up. Face it again and do a little better and fail again. Get back up.

Experience teaches. Having that experience teaches. Not watching others have that experience.

But you do you Tom.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Has anyone ever wanted to learn something and thought to yourself "gee let me find someone with absolutely NO experience in doing X. I want someone who has never actually done what I am seeking knowledge in. Or someone who has done a small fraction of what I am thinking 30 plus years ago."?

Of course not! Why does this seem logical in magic?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, why would you follow someone with NO experience? That’s not what I’m saying. You seem to be saying just go off on your own and fail to you succeed, that you need to fail.
I’m simply saying learn from others mistakes and don’t repeat the same. That’s how you get there sooner. Why waste a lifetime making mistakes that could have been avoided.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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If you had a second worth of experience in what we are talking about you would know that you LEARN THINGS from failure that you can't learn by watching others fail.

But since you never have done anything remotely like this maybe your opinion isn't as valid as you think.

Yes you learn from others, that is the nature of our business. Again not having done this you have no clue. But you can't take short cuts Tom. You have to climb the ladder one rung at a time. No matter what the world's foremost authority has to say.

But by all means Tom please keep proving my point. It is a wonderful illustration of what I am talking about.

And yes Tom. You NEED to fail. Not knowing this shows your inexperience is all.

If your method worked Tom, don't you think we would be through all the mistakes by now? Don't you think that all of them would be made and we would have a fool proof formula that ANYONE could follow? It doesn't work that way Tom. Life only works that way in story books. You are not going to short cut success or avoid mistakes. You need to learn them the hard way Tom.

PLEASE stop derailing a perfectly good topic yet again. Just stop.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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“You NEED to fail.” Really?

Ok if that’s your opinion.

And I’m certainly not saying people will never fail, but 'needs to'
I don’t think so, not when it can be avoided. But that’s my opinion.

The reason we read books, ask questions, and listen to others is to avoid failing.
And here you are saying well we need to fail. Talk about bad advice.

Anyways nuff said.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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God I hope that means you are done posting.

Fran Tarkenton wrote a book called "The Power of Failure". Not having to fail would be news to him and he has 127 successful companies.
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Failure-Suc......01272284

"NFL Hall of Fame quarterback Fran Tarkenton is a friend of failure. In the 1970s, he brought the Minnesota Vikings to the Superbowl three times—and three times his team was crushed. The first two companies he founded both quickly folded. But by learning how to deal with defeat, Tarkenton discovered the key to success. Now 74 years old and CEO of Tarkenton Companies, Fran Tarkenton shares the most valuable lesson he learned as an athlete and entrepreneur—that failure, devastating as it is, can be an incredible gift."

But I am sure as the world's foremost authority you know better.

MY GOD please stop posting.

YOU NEED TO fail so you learn how to deal with it, and accept it Tom. Pretending it never happens CRUSHES you when it does! You have to learn to deal with it in a proactive way. You need to learn how to move forward. You learn SO MUCH form failure Tom. WAY more than from success.

Yes Tom you NEED to fail to learn to succeed. Show me a famous entrepreneur who hasn't failed Tom. Show me a non famous successful one who hasn't failed. They are an anomaly.

PLEASE I beg you to stop posting. It makes you look so bad.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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I don’t think people would read “The Power of Failure” to learn how to fail.
And I can assure you Fran Tarkenton never planned on losing a game.
He also wrote a book called “Every Day is Game Day” where he talks about how important it is to play to win.
Failure happens and yes we do learn from it, but what we don’t do is plan to fail.
We do everything we can to avoid it.

Ok, I will stop now.


Tom
Dannydoyle
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Who said you have to plan to fail? Spoiler here Tom. It was only YOU.

Not one person here said you should plan TO fail. That is you making up nonsense in your own head.

I bet you juat can't help posting again even though you claim you will. It is yet another FAILURE you have in life Tom.

Successful people oboe failure is inevitable. You have not learned this very valuable lesson I'm sorry but at your age it us doubtful you will. Please don't stop others from learning. Quit derailing this.

But here is a hint for success Tom. The inability to learn or see where you are wrong is not an asset in success.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ray Pierce
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You have made SO many wonderful points, Danny. You don't learn the lesson by doing everything right. Every weird solution for a problem I've come up with that makes a show work, came from there first being a failure in the system. That's what pressure testing does... it exposes the problems and there is no better pressure testing than doing something on stage in front of a real audience. Rehearsals don't count, friends and family don't count. Now those are certainly necessary but it isn't pressure testing. A professional isn't someone who doesn't make mistakes, they are someone who has made MANY mistakes and created solutions for them.
Ray Pierce
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WitchDocChris
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If I may make what seems like a diversion, but it does apply -

My first real start in 'professional' (used with a heavy grain of salt in this instance, I was a newb) performance was fire performing. In fire performance, one of the quickest ways to differentiate someone who knows what they are doing is how they react when they light something on fire which is not supposed to be on fire.

Experienced people will know it's easy to put out. Very experienced people know how to put it out without breaking the rhythm and flow of the performance. One of my favorite pieces of feedback I got after a performance was when I accidentally lit a small part of my pants, and casually extinguished it in the flow of a move. Someone after said, "I really loved how casually you put yourself out when your pants caught. Super confident."

If someone has never failed, I don't trust their advice at all because they clearly haven't pushed any boundaries and I doubt they're really performing much. Live theater goes awry. Not every time, but often enough that you can definitely tell when someone actually knows what they're talking about because they have the tips that only bizarre failures can teach you.

I think the whole exchange above is wonky because the interpretation of, "try, fail, fix it, fail again" was off - That doesn't mean you're planning to fail. It means you have to understand you -will- fail sometimes, and those who learn from those mistakes and try again, better, are the ones who succeed.

The learning part - that's the key.
Christopher
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TomBoleware
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Yes we do need to understand that ‘accidents’ happen to us all and those usually can’t be avoided no matter what we do. But ‘failure’ should be seen as simply not being prepared in the first place, only then can we avoid making the same mistake again.

Just me I know, but I hate hearing people say you need to fail in order to pay your dues. It’s like we should welcome failure.Smile

Nobody ‘needs’ to fail in order to learn a lesson, they ‘need’ to prepare and practice in order to avoid making that mistake. Fran Tarkenton NEVER said to his players, “Team we need to go out there today and lose this game so we can get us some of that experience.” No we practice and prepare beforehand in order to avoid mistakes.

And then, not everybody can learn from failure, they just repeat it. If failure was such a great teacher we would seek out the biggest losers to learn from. But we don’t, we seek out the best in order to learn how not to fail.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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You obviously can't learn. You are making up stuff none of us ever said in a desperate attempt just to be right.

Yes it is just you here Tom who thinks that because YOU HAVE NEVER DONE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Heck you even failed at not posting any more like you said. You fail at that all the time. Your ego just won't let you stop.

Your platitudes don't work here Tom. Go run your little daycare and pretend you used to be in show business. Maybe your idea work there but not in this world. Pretending you never fail is not the same as bring successful. If you are not smart enough to learn from failure that is on you. And it explains a LOT about your posts.

Nobody here is buying your bs.

Failure is not always lack of being prepared. That is just guru bs. Much like everything you post.

Please stop now. Adults want to talk.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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On Jun 27, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
You obviously can't learn. You are making up stuff none of us ever said in a desperate attempt just to be right.

Yes it is just you here Tom who thinks that because YOU HAVE NEVER DONE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Heck you even failed at not posting any more like you said. You fail at that all the time. Your ego just won't let you stop.

Your platitudes don't work here Tom. Go run your little daycare and pretend you used to be in show business. Maybe your idea work there but not in this world. Pretending you never fail is not the same as bring successful. If you are not smart enough to learn from failure that is on you. And it explains a LOT about your posts.

Nobody here is buying your bs.

Failure is not always lack of being prepared. That is just guru bs. Much like everything you post.

Please stop now. Adults want to talk.


Danny, have you always been this rude?

What causes you to be such a jerk?

Really, you need to get some help.

Danny, why do you hate me? Is it jealousy?

You are the only one on here that questions EVERYTHING I say.

Do I need to ask the mods to put a stop to your uncalled for behavior?

Tom
thomasR
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Basically... you are never ready. If you think you are ready.... you’ll fail. And then after you fail a few times you’ll be ready. If you wait until you’re actually ready, you’ll never do it. Ha.
TomBoleware
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Oh I agree we shouldn’t be afraid to fail. And yes things happen.

But we do get to choose, we can swim upstream or downstream.

Choosing out direction and being prepared is the key.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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Who said don't be prepared Tom? YOU ONLY! Who said we can choose to swim upstream? YOU DID! So stop making these stupid points as if someone else other than you said them.

NOBODY said be unprepared. NOBODY said anything you are implying that was said. You are using straw man arguments in a desperate attempt to be relevant. You have NEVER tried this and never done it so please stop posting like you said. YOU FAILED at it. So try harder and don't fail. Stop posting.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, I haven’t said that anybody said anything. And yes I said everything that I said. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Let me get right to the point Danny, you know absolutely nothing about me. You have no idea what I have done or what I haven’t done. So please stop pretending that you do and just making crap up. Nobody wants to see your continuing insults thrown at me. I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say, but I do have a problem in the way you are doing it. You need to stop Danny before you get into serious trouble, enough is enough, and that is not a threat it is a promise.

Tom
Christian & Katalina
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If you are pursuing excellence you will fail . . . it is inevitable. No matter how much you read, watch, or practice you will fail. There are too many factors involved. You then have two options, give up or get up. When you get up, you take inventory and you learn your lessons. This will be repeated many times. As time passes you will improve, make less mistakes, and get closer to your goal.

No one wants to fail, no one plans to fail, but failing is part of the process. Crushing failure is how we learn many lessons. Sometimes it will be the only way to learn a certain lesson. I have been asked many times what I would change looking back on my career. The problem with that question is, what they are really asking is, what mistakes would you have avoided. Now granted there are some mistakes that were really stupid ones, those you would go back and avoid. But many of our mistakes are ones you need to make in order to learn. To undo them would mean not getting the lesson.

Danny is absolutely correct in this. Failure is not only part of the process it is inevitable.
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Dannydoyle
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On Jun 27, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, I haven’t said that anybody said anything. And yes I said everything that I said. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Let me get right to the point Danny, you know absolutely nothing about me. You have no idea what I have done or what I haven’t done. So please stop pretending that you do and just making crap up. Nobody wants to see your continuing insults thrown at me. I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say, but I do have a problem in the way you are doing it. You need to stop Danny before you get into serious trouble, enough is enough, and that is not a threat it is a promise.

Tom


Oh stop the internet tough guy threaten promise stuff. It is funny.

You have no clue what we are talking about Tom. Everyone here but you gets it. As usual. So why do you insist on derailing the thread? You are NOT a performer. So you may have some 40 year old information that does not apply.

Stop already Tom. Please stop. My stuffed PM box seems to indicate people want you to stop derailing the thread. What have I done with the "way" I am doing it Tom? I am only pointing out that you have ZERO current experience in this and that is a generous estimate. You have missed the point of what we are saying. You have misrepresented what I have said and tried to claim I said things I never have.

I am sorry you can not keep up Tom. I am sorry you are not a performer. I am sorry you are not relevant in this discussion. But none of this is my fault. So instead of trying to insert yourself into a conversation in which you have little to nothing to contribute why not sit back and actually learn something? NOBODY is claiming that you should plan to fail. YOU made that up and assigned it to me as if I said it. Well I did not Tom. Not even close. You are the only one involved in this thread that seems to get that as a takeaway.

So either catch up and figure out what is being said or please just stop derailing the thread. It is really great information and you are not helping. You have said you were going to stop. But something inside you just won't let that happen. Is this my fault as well?

As for your silly question about hating you I don't. As an example of John Doe says something just crazy that makes NO sense at all in the real world and I mention how he is just plain wrong does this mean I hate John Doe? John would be well served to learn from what is being said instead of ALWAYS arguing and being just so desperate to be right he can't bring himself to admit he is wrong. As for jealous of you? HILARIOUS but if that is what gets you through the night then sure. I am jealous. LOL.

You keep accusing me of stalking you. Well Tom when I post in the thread BEFORE you it is hard to make such an accusation, yet you have many times. When you say something that is just flat out wrong it will be pointed out Tom. If you don't like that an obvious solution is perhaps to say fewer incorrect things. That will shut me up faster than you can imagine.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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On Jun 27, 2019, Christian & Katalina wrote:
If you are pursuing excellence you will fail . . . it is inevitable. No matter how much you read, watch, or practice you will fail. There are too many factors involved. You then have two options, give up or get up. When you get up, you take inventory and you learn your lessons. This will be repeated many times. As time passes you will improve, make less mistakes, and get closer to your goal.

No one wants to fail, no one plans to fail, but failing is part of the process. Crushing failure is how we learn many lessons. Sometimes it will be the only way to learn a certain lesson. I have been asked many times what I would change looking back on my career. The problem with that question is, what they are really asking is, what mistakes would you have avoided. Now granted there are some mistakes that were really stupid ones, those you would go back and avoid. But many of our mistakes are ones you need to make in order to learn. To undo them would mean not getting the lesson.

Danny is absolutely correct in this. Failure is not only part of the process it is inevitable.


And HERE is the point that the armchair crowd seems to miss. Avoiding the mistake will mean you avoid learning the lesson.

THIS is why I am SO passionate about this particular misrepresentation by the guru crowd. It HURTS people at the beginning of a career to be told the opposite of this very point.

Mistakes are how we learn. Being wrong is what teaches us to get to right. It is not about KNOWING, it is about LEARNING!

Learning how to deal with failure as part of any process of learning is essential and fundamental. It can not be done any other way. Sure you plan to do the best you can with the information you have at your disposal, but life is funny. The idea that you can avoid failure is just not true. And it is a HUGE problem in the magic community specifically. BUT it is not something you can learn or experience or know even from the couch. You have to be IN IT to know!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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