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DaKine Oregon
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Brian Brushwood (who has been criticized on Magic Café for revealing secrets on YouTube) Tweeted today: "There is no moral case to be against teaching magic on Youtube. If you are against magic being taught on youtube, you are in favor of protecting a structure that has been very good to pedophiles." I kind of agree with him. What do you think?
funsway
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Teaching magic and "revealing secrets" are different issues - and certainly both have ethical implications. There is always a "moral case" for any action - it is called ethics.
The example given has several logical fallacies.

So, he may even be right in his thinking, but fails to justify it here.

I am against teaching magic on YouTube and it has nothing to do with pedophiles or politics or religion.

First off, you can't each magic at all - on any media. You can possibly teach tricks and reveal methods. Secondly, revealing is not teaching. Instructing, maybe, but not teaching.

What I personally think is that ANY revealing of method or "secret" to an unknown observer is wrong.
Teach magic to known students. Mentor secrets to a known and proven student.

The real tragedy is that those "learning" from him are being exposed to tricks and not magic.
Possibly creative spirits will be forever stunted in learning powerful magic effects based on audience engagement and psychological ploys.

Sorry that you agree with him.

But, your topic heading is "learning magic on You Tube. Yet, you talk about his teaching, instructing, revealing. When does the learning come in?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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DaKine Oregon
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Brushwood talks about routine building, combining principles behind effects to create new, even better effects. He's way better than the dozens of 12-year-old kids revealing secrets in their bedrooms, who have never performed in front of a live audience. Jay Sankey does a great job of teaching magic via new media. Are you saying that magic can only be learned in person, face-to-face? Because, as Brushwood points out, private face-to-face lessons have worked out well for molesters, such as this guy:

https://www.newsweek.com/massachusetts-m......-1303031

or this one:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/.......4352333

Don't be too quick to put down the internet as an educational tool for beginning magicians.
WitchDocChris
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The problem with that quote is that it's emotionally manipulative.

He's basically trying to say that it's either A) Support teaching magic on YouTube, or B) Support pedophiles.

This is obviously bonkers, and obviously intended to force people to choose the first option.

The fact that he's using emotionally manipulative language to try to sway people to his thoughts is very telling in itself. If his point was valid, he wouldn't have to manipulate people into agreeing with him, would he? (Which in itself is a lighter form of the technique, I will admit).

The simple fact is this: People who are interested in learning things search the internet first. That is how it works now in most cases. Therefore, almost everyone who gets interested in magic will first be exposed to learning magic from YouTube. The only smart way to approach this is to be welcoming and open to new magicians and guide them to better information sources.

If someone's excited about magic and then the Old Guard comes along and says things like, "You're just learning tricks, not real magic", the newbie is going to say, "Well forget you, I like it and I'm going to stick with these people who make me feel good about it." So they go back to YouTube. But if the Old Guard responds with, "That's great! Have you thought about trying it maybe like this? And what do you like to talk about when you perform this?" - that's engaging, and respecting their achievements, and encouraging them to continue - which gives time to guide them to better resources.
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WitchDocChris
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Christopher
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JoeLyons
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Saying YouTube magic lessons prevent pedophilia is sophistry. Using the same logic all school children would need to stay home and use skype to get their education. All interactions between an adult and child need to be evaluated and monitored by a parent. That said, used correctly, the internet can be an awesome tool(along with books, etc.) with which to learn magic, this forum being just one example.
DaKine Oregon
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JoeLyons we agree that parents should monitor interactions between adults and their children (a challenging task in this time when both parents usually need to work outside the home). I don't say that YouTube magic lessons prevent abuse; I do say they are A valid way for people to learn magic. (Parents also need to monitor kids' online activities.) Also, don't kids who live where there are no magic stores or magician/teachers deserve to learn to share our art also? Some, like funsway seem to be saying that the only way to learn magic is by being in the same room as a live magician. That makes no sense to me in today's world.
Brushwood has been attacked by the magic community for revealing secrets on YouTube, but in any library in the country, there are books revealing lots of magic secrets. People aren't attacking Martin Gardner, Bob Longe, Bill Tarr, or Karl Fulves for that. Anybody can borrow those books. Anybody can watch Brushwood's videos. Why are people so down on him?
WitchDocChris
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DaKine -

Part of the vitriol is because of the nature of effort.

If one wants to learn magic from the library, one must go to the library, find the books, and study them. There is effort required, which in a way is earning the knowledge.

Whereas on YouTube the tutorial for a trick is literally pushed at you, even if you don't want to learn it. There's literally no effort required to earn the knowledge, it's thrust upon you.

So someone could be trying to catch up on P&T Fool Us and all along the sidebar there are suggested videos that reveal the methods (frequently incorrectly, almost universally extremely poor teaching, but revealed none the less).

So on top of almost forcing secrets on people, the folks who are giving out these tutorials are also emphasizing a model of the magic world in which it's expected for magicians to reveal their secrets. All over, I don't know if the supposedly altruistic efforts outweigh the distinctly and demonstrably bad outcomes.
Christopher
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DaKine Oregon
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YouTube videos aren't forced on people. They are convenient: you don't have to leave your house, but you DO have to look for them. I do not think it serves anyone to give away magic secrets, but I disagree that they're being pushed (OK, maybe by YouTube's algorithms, but it's unfair to blame people like Brushwood for that.)
WitchDocChris
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If you search for any magic performance, you are suggested videos along the side bar that relate. While 'forced' is, admittedly a bit strong, they are pushed. Also, those people who are making those videos are purposely tagging them in ways that get them suggested for performance videos.

To say that "people like Brushwood" are not responsible for this is ... patently absurd. They make the content. They tag the content in such a way hoping that it will get into the searches and suggestions. They create the thumbnail to generate interest. They create the clickbait titles intending to get people to watch the videos.

I'm blaming because they are -literally- doing it. This is literally their fault, and it's also their fault that newbies are doing it too. They are creating the example and demonstrating it the way to be popular and successful as a magician.

I'm not exaggerating at all there - it's literally their fault.
Christopher
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funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 20, 2019, DaKine Oregon wrote:

Don't be too quick to put down the internet as an educational tool for beginning magicians.


weird. You ask what people think and then attack their view.

Then you project with this statement. I never put down the internet as an educational tool. I challenged the ability to "teach" on the internet. - and to teach magic specifically.

Now, I have several Masters Degrees - one in "Educational Technology" and am somewhat versed in the advantages and disadvantages of all forms of media relative to education.

I do not know your qualifications or those of the guy you worship/champion. You both offer opinions, just as I do.

What I challenged is the misuse of logic and intent. I would challenge this on the internet, a classroom, in a sermon or soapbox rant.

So, don't be so quick to judge anyone at any time or on any subject -
and certainly do not attempt to put words into their mouths.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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DaKine Oregon
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Funsway:
I apologize if it seemed I was attacking your opinion. I was only trying to encourage open mindedness. I admire your time and effort in earning your degrees. In my very humble opinion, since I have learned about magic on YouTube, it would seem that the internet can indeed be used to teach magic. If it could not, then I would not have learned anything. I have also learned from books, from videos, and from live people in the room in front of me. Each of these has its own advantages and disadvantages as a way of teaching. I don't see why the internet can't be a perfectly valid tool for the teaching and learning of magic, especially for people who are geographically and economically isolated from skilled magicians. Or do you believe magic should only be taught to well-off people in urban areas? Because they're the only ones who can be "known and proven students". Doeas a book author know who's going to read their book and have secrets revealed to them?
Steve Malco
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I love the insight being shared on this thread by everybody involved, really fascinating to read.

I should mention Brushwood posted about this over at Reddit 24 hours ago and there was this long discussion about it that is still on going but the last comment was 23 hours ago so it looks like it has calmed down.

If anyone is interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Magic/comments/......be_made/

There are a few decent points that are made in the sense that there are some people who without YouTube would not be able to get into magic at all because they don't have the economical or sociological means to do so.

That's a fair point.

Everything else in the Reddit discussion is somewhat of an echo chamber, there are some who have opposing views to a degree, but not many.

It is not lost on me however that Brian does not propose that same question HERE at the Café, that would be interesting to see since in his Reddit post he is challenging people to "Change my mind".

I think this place would be more suitable for that, intellectually speaking.

Edit: One thing I have noticed over the years is how the audience interaction with magicians are changing due to certain television shows and YouTube tutorials. It's altered the way the general public sees magic and I don't see that changing anytime soon. That is a reality that we're going to have to make adjustments for whether we like it or not.
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The Mysterious One
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Brushwood's argument is manipulative at best. He acts like he is being altruistic, but he is getting paid for Scam School, etc for a long time now. He will never come on the Café since many here honestly dislike him and how he trivializes the art. Through the years, you see magicians (often Texas based ones) go on his show, teach a trick they invented for his audience. Almost everyone is passionate about the art here, and Brushwood has angered quite a few here over the years. Brian knows he was hated here on the Café by a number of people, especially after his exposure of several effects and techniques used by pros. I have noticed a few supporters coming out of the woodwork over time, but they will always be the small minority.

About some teenage kids....and YouTube....

I met a kid at the Illusionist show several years ago, whom I happen to sit next to. During the intermission, he performed two card tricks and called himself a magician. He did a decent job with performing the one card trick for people around him (his technique of doing a ****** **** was very sloppy at best...the most unnatural method I have ever seen to execute this fundamental move). He performed "David Blaine's Two Card Monte," as he called it, and told me he learned it on YouTube after seeing the performance of it. I told him that I know a card trick as well, and blew his mind from one I learned in all things....a book!!!!! I kindly shared with him that if you are serious about the art and truly want to grow, get off YouTube and learn from quality books and videos. Learn the basics from some wonderful effects out there that were published by Dover (Royal Road, Karrell Fulves books, etc.) These books will beat a Brushwood video any day of the week and won't set you back much. I also kindly reminded him that the Two Card Monte was not invented by David Blaine, but was invented by Eddie Fetcher and is called "Be Honest, What is It?" He looked at me like I was from a different planet as I said all of this, especially when I said "As magicians, we stand on the shoulder of giants."

Maybe, I made a bad impression on the kid for truly trying to help the kid. I admit that I wasn't my jovial, comedic self since I was at someone else's show and talked very quietly while performing for him so only the kid and his father could hear. Previously, he was standing up and performing for the two rows around us several card tricks. He was openly stating the name of the effect (A big no-no when performing.... learned that years ago when Eugene related a story on how someone googled a trick he performed that was exposed...not going to say the name of the trick in an open forum). Based on respect of the performers that people came to see, I don't perform walk around magic at someone else's show. It is common professional courtesy . Standing up and performing magic at someone else's show would make me look like I am desperate for an audience (which I am not). Vernon put it wisely that "Only magicians will see someone and ask 'Want to see a trick?' You don't see a concert pianist walk up to someone and say 'Do you wanna hear me play?'" When it comes to Vernon's wisdom about magic and performance, I closely listen and follow his advice.

Good magic to all....
The Mysterious One
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I mentioned Eugene... of course I am talking about Eugene Burger
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Not the first time I have linked this and probably won’t be the last. Lee Asher’s take on the subject can be seen here:
https://www.leeasher.com/blog/youtube-exposure-in-magic.php
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landmark
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Quote:
He's basically trying to say that it's either A) Support teaching magic on YouTube, or B) Support pedophiles.


Yes, pretty scuzzy. Whatever the merits of teaching/learning on YouTube are--and there are some--he just lost the argument forever right there.
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 20, 2019, DaKine Oregon wrote:

I don't see why the internet can't be a perfectly valid tool for the teaching and learning of magic, especially for people who are geographically and economically isolated from skilled magicians.


A reasonable question. Too bad you followed it with more projection and assumption.

use of the Internet for either learning or instruction is not the same as posting an expose or mangled presentation on YouTube or other public domain.
Certainly, Internet communications including Skype and cheap phone calls are "valid tools" that can help "distant students."

That is not the use or intent here (opinion)

Since one element of magic as a performing art is secrecy, or at least "I know something you do not," broadcast demos violate that principle in favor of ego flaunting.
You might learn tricks or techniques, but never how to present a magic effect for a live audience.

You, as an individual, can learn from any source or media. But, you can only learn that which life has prepared you for.
I question that mimicking what is seen on YouTube is either "learning magic" or preparing you to learn at all - except how to post on YouTube.

Instead, try finding inspiration for a possible magic effect for any source, then seek out the best way to larn what is required.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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funsway
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To expand on my opinions - just that but based on a lot of experience.

You can learn all of the sleights, techniques and magic theory you need from library books and asking questions on the Internet, phone or mail.
You can use "found objects" and make your own props. No need to spend any money at all!

Now, you may CHOOSE to spend money, purchase ready to perform tricks or watch live or Internet demos for inspiration. You may WANT that, but do not NEED it.

The ability to produce astonishment, awe&wonder or a long-term "must be magic" response has little to do with anything offered on YouTube.

Sharing ideas with diverse people around the world can be a valid use of Internet communications. It can be a tool for learning many things.
Tricks possibly. Magic, not so much. Interpersonal communication skills - not at all.

I regularly communicate with folks around the world on magic themes - performance, artistic and theory. I do not teach, but do attempt to create
and format in which the student might learn. Much of this is on the Internet. I will never post a demo of a finished magic effect.
A demo of a sleight or move, yes. The intricate workings of a gaff or prop, maybe.

I follow the Tameriz construct of Skeleton, Flesh and Clothing for a planned magic effect. ( what the audience will perceive is happening).
I can provide the first two at a distance. The third is up to the individual performer. Copying what I do is not part of that.

I obviously support incremental learning over global backwash - feeing that trying to work backwards from myopic video is forever biased.

Do I help everyone? No. Do I create new effects and share them with everyone (anyone)? No.
First comes the demonstration of interest, commitment and intent. Next comes proof of the ability to learn.
The concept in education is called "scaffolding." For instruction this may mean "prerequisite." There is always a required factor of "ability."

It is so easy to learn a trick and abuse others with it. If you ever desire to learn magic, contact me eversway.com
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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sirbrad
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Sounds like a good tagline for his channel. "Don't get molested, learn magic on YouTube!" OK, got it. Smile When I started magic almost 40 years ago there was no YouTube only books, and later on VHS tapes. So I learned from those, and buying tricks and supplies from brick and mortar magic shops, as well as online shops later on. You can learn from any media form, however the knowledge of magic should not just be freely given and put out there for free, back in the day we had to earn that knowledge and pay good money for that knowledge; which also made us respect it a lot more as well.

Today's kids have no respect, they get all their "secrets" for free so then they are just as quick to expose those secrets for free as well. They don't understand what "real magic" is actually about, all they care about is getting attention for exposing a trick, and are too inept to realize that the method is not the trick. The don't have a livelihood to protect that is based on keeping secrets, so of course they are not going to respect them. They live in their parent's basement still, and are too busy posting YouTube videos all day and night seeking attention and don't have the chops to actually perform and entertain anyone.

So all they can do is resort to exposure for views and attention, and try and teach what they actually know nothing about. Exposing a method freely on YouTube does not make you a magic teacher, it makes you an idiot.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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