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magicwiia
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I'm new to card magic (a few months) and trying to learn undamentals. My approach has been to learn only no-get-ready DLs only. It forces me to not rely on a break at least in the early-learning phase.

I think I've progressed well with the Dr Daley Instantaneous DL and Martin Nash Knockout DL. I think I can do either with a fair level of confidence. I've struggled mightily with the small-packet DL in spite of trying the Brother Hammon small-packet technique. It is a temporary set back but creates the fire within me to persevere and learn it.

There is so much to learn and getting a satisfactory DL is paramount to me. Is forcing myself to only learn no-get-ready DLs, with the hopes it accelerates the process, a bad approach?
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Jun 25, 2019, magicwiia wrote:
I'm new to card magic (a few months) and trying to learn undamentals. My approach has been to learn only no-get-ready DLs only. It forces me to not rely on a break at least in the early-learning phase.

I think I've progressed well with the Dr Daley Instantaneous DL and Martin Nash Knockout DL. I think I can do either with a fair level of confidence. I've struggled mightily with the small-packet DL in spite of trying the Brother Hammon small-packet technique. It is a temporary set back but creates the fire within me to persevere and learn it.

There is so much to learn and getting a satisfactory DL is paramount to me. Is forcing myself to only learn no-get-ready DLs, with the hopes it accelerates the process, a bad approach?


I think you are over-analyzing things a bit. A DL, whether you just turn them over (double turnover) or actually lift them off doesn't have to be either-or. You can vary the technique depending upon the situation. Personally I nearly always do a hit double, but if I have reason to take the top card off to gesture or something I might gain a break as the deck falls to my side. In that way it is covered.

Break or no break, the actions are similar so no need to focus only on one type.
countrymaven
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If you have Card College, you can learn a surefire way to get a break and do it. It is very easy. In spite of countless ways of doing double lifts available, I tend to do those which work every time so I can focus on the performance. Few spectators suspect a double lift if it is smooth.
Last Laugh
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Being able to get a break under one or two cards with just the left hand is a good skill to have. Other uses than just a double lift...
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Claudio
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I agree with the comments above. There are cases when a no-get-ready will be better and others when either will do. Personally I mostly use a Pinkie Count which does not limit you to just two cards. With some adjusting, you can pinkie count even small packets. For packets that have fewer than 5 cards, I use other sleights though.

Being able to maintain breaks easily and invisibly is a fundamental part of a cardman skill. During a DL, the break is usually not the issue but the way it's secured. If you fumble during the get-ready, obviously you'll undermine the illusion.

When I need to perform a series of DLs without discernible pauses, I use Hit Doubles. Incidentally, when I first started to learn the Hit Double, as I was not always sure of hitting a double, I would perform the hit and keep a break under the cards without carrying out the turnover. My hands would be moving. If I hit the double (you can feel it), I would then finish the DL with an easy push-over, otherwise I would adjust according to the situation.

One last word regarding the notion of get-ready. I believe that most (if not all?) DLs require a get-ready. For instance when I perform a push-over or a Hit double, I adjust the packet in my hand (squaring, bevelling etc.) to facilitate the incoming DL. Maybe not very insightful, as it could be applied to any move, but I thought I'd mention it.
Tortuga
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On Jun 26, 2019, Claudio wrote:
I agree with the comments above. There are cases when a no-get-ready will be better and others when either will do. Personally I mostly use a Pinkie Count which does not limit you to just two cards. With some adjusting, you can pinkie count even small packets. For packets that have fewer than 5 cards, I use other sleights though.

Being able to maintain breaks easily and invisibly is a fundamental part of a cardman skill. During a DL, the break is usually not the issue but the way it's secured. If you fumble during the get-ready, obviously you'll undermine the illusion.

When I need to perform a series of DLs without discernible pauses, I use Hit Doubles. Incidentally, when I first started to learn the Hit Double, as I was not always sure of hitting a double, I would perform the hit and keep a break under the cards without carrying out the turnover. My hands would be moving. If I hit the double (you can feel it), I would then finish the DL with an easy push-over, otherwise I would adjust according to the situation.

One last word regarding the notion of get-ready. I believe that most (if not all?) DLs require a get-ready. For instance when I perform a push-over or a Hit double, I adjust the packet in my hand (squaring, bevelling etc.) to facilitate the incoming DL. Maybe not very insightful, as it could be applied to any move, but I thought I'd mention it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claudio, you make some very good additions to the conversation. I also use the hit method to create a break sometimes. And yes, after awhile you can feel whether it is two or even three cards. Similar to how you can begin to automatically cut at 26 for faros. You think it is impossible until you start doing it.

I recently began mentoring a young magician and when I watched his Ambitious Card routine I cringed. He did pretty much all of the things we are saying not to do. He didn't know any better. We fixed that right away. Now his DLs are quick and smooth.
CardGuyMike
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If you really want to put in the work, learn how to do a multiple push-off.

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/......pushoff/
Claudio
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On Jun 26, 2019, CardGuyMike wrote:
If you really want to put in the work, learn how to do a multiple push-off.

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/......pushoff/


My own attempt at multiple pushoffs from 1 to 7 cards. Based on the second deal I learnt straight from Expert Card Technique. I use this when I perform Dai Vernon's Running the scale effect.

But all in all, I think that less demanding techniques will be more beneficial when one's learning DLs.

Mike Powers
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Try Martin Nash's double. There's no get ready. It resembles a two card push off, but there's a squaring action that allows the two cards to separate a bit without causing problems.

Mike
Bob G
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Hi Claudio,


Your comments are insightful as always. I have a question about one thing you said:


"Incidentally, when I first started to learn the Hit Double, as I was not always sure of hitting a double, I would perform the hit and keep a break under the cards without carrying out the turnover. My hands would be moving. If I hit the double (you can feel it), I would then finish the DL with an easy push-over, otherwise I would adjust according to the situation."


My question: What did you do if you could feel that you *hadn't" gotten the right number of cards? How did you adjust? This is more than an "academic" question: My strike DL is quite good *when* it's good, but I catch one or three cards more often than I'd like.


I hope all is well.


Bob
Tortuga
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On Jun 26, 2019, Mike Powers wrote:
Try Martin Nash's double. There's no get ready. It resembles a two card push off, but there's a squaring action that allows the two cards to separate a bit without causing problems.

Mike


The original post indicates that he is working on the Knockout Double. I recommend he keep working on that one as well.
Tortuga
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On Jun 26, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Hi Claudio,


Your comments are insightful as always. I have a question about one thing you said:


"Incidentally, when I first started to learn the Hit Double, as I was not always sure of hitting a double, I would perform the hit and keep a break under the cards without carrying out the turnover. My hands would be moving. If I hit the double (you can feel it), I would then finish the DL with an easy push-over, otherwise I would adjust according to the situation."

Claudio will respond I'm sure, but in the meantime, when you miss you can either fiddle with the break and fix it at that moment, or drop the break, wait a beat and then try again. Both can be problems if you let them.

If I do a hit double and get three when I want two, I will leave it as a break, do something which creates misdirection and then go back to it. This is where audience management and acting come into play. Go to get the break and/or perform a turnover and stop suddenly, maybe saying something to the effect of "oops, I almost forgot, I need to..." Just have your comment make sense in the moment.

If you fiddle with the break and fix it in that moment you are inviting suspicion in my opinion. It just looks too studied. So use a little misdirection and it should help.


My question: What did you do if you could feel that you *hadn't" gotten the right number of cards? How did you adjust? This is more than an "academic" question: My strike DL is quite good *when* it's good, but I catch one or three cards more often than I'd like.


I hope all is well.


Bob
countrymaven
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Or Ken Krenzel's natural double In his Card Classics... book, if you want it to look like you are really picking up one card, offset, instead of card(s)? from the top of a deck.
Tortuga
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Somehow my response above got meshed in with the original message I was responding to. I cannot edit it now. Sorry for the confusion.
Tortuga
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On Jun 26, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Or Ken Krenzel's natural double In his Card Classics... book, if you want it to look like you are really picking up one card, offset, instead of card(s)? from the top of a deck.


A good lift and another good reason to buy that book if you don't own it. The book is referenced in countless other books and videos, etc.

Another example of what Harry Lorayne calls "the good stuff".
Claudio
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Hi Bob,

Tortuga said it all somewhere in the middle of a quote Smile, but in my own words:

I think my answer’s going to disappoint you. 99.99% of the time when one misses the strike, it’ll be by one card, either too many or too few. In both cases I resorted to using the basic DL described in Royal Road to Card Magic.

If I had hit only one card, I would lift a second card with the right thumb and perform the DL. You’ll see that it’s very easy as there’s no hesitation since the top card is already “lifted”.

If I had hit one card too many, in the process of picking up the three cards for the turnover, my right thumb would release the bottom one. Yet again easy.

All this can be done without fumbling with a modicum of practice.

On occasion I would forget about the break and do a different DL. In those days I was very fond of the thumb count DL.

I have seen cardmen miss the first strike and immediately afterwards do another one. To me it looks like stammering and is definitely fishy.
Bob G
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Thanks to you both, Tortuga and Claudio. Actually I'd say your replies complement each other: misdirection + mechanics.


Bob
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My book THE CARD CLASSICS OF KEN KRENZEL is updated/re-written in LORAYNE: THE CLASSIC COLLECTION, Vol. 4 - alone with STAR QUALITY (the magic of David Regal) and THE MAGIC BOOK. One heck of a bargain - talk about "the good stuff." You can find out more about it - or even order a copy (not that many left) at harryloraynemagic.com .
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

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Last Laugh
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On Jun 26, 2019, CardGuyMike wrote:
If you really want to put in the work, learn how to do a multiple push-off.

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/......pushoff/


Pro tip, you can also do a push off double from a break. Supposedly that's how some of the old bust out blackjack dealers did their second deals in order to keep them nice and tight.
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Bob G
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Claudio, I just watched your multiple lift video. It's enough to make a person believe in real magic! I'm glad that one doesn't have to reach your level of mastery to perform (pretend) magic.
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