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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Which Hand Method & Philosophy by Timon Krause - Mind FX (99 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Michael.Kegel
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Morganjj wrote:
"If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand?"

There is zero obligation for anyone to sell you anything simply because you want it.

People these days are a disaster. You're not a customer, the customer is not always right, and you don't get to have things simply because you demand them. None of this is rocket science, but it seems to fly right by people these days.

"You may say that they should just accept that they are sold out... but if the author makes no way to buy a legit copy - it's a lot harder to complain about pirate copies.."

No it's not. You have no entitlement to other peoples work.

Holy moly. This is magic. And we're supposed to be able to buy any secret we please simply because we want to? What has the world come to?


I was afraid that this might happen. Please read between the lines.

Of course there is no obligation but apparently a disposition to sell this very product - but not to anybody. Just to 500 lucky ones. See what I mean?

And yes, I'm most certainly not entitled to other people's work, BUT Timon decided to have his work marketed. I still - even from your reply - don't get why the decision was taken to publish this but only in such a limited and small quantity that people who are genuinely interested in his work are compelled to miss out on this one.

The world has come to the following: magicians sell effects they deem to be sold for good money, and other magicians who are willing to spend money on said effects buy them. It's that simple. There's no "holy moly". It's not that anybody wants to know a secret they shouldn't know. It's that someone would really like to know a secret that has been revealed by the creator himself.
The Duster
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It's crazy that the creator decides to not sell any more copies - when he knows that the pirate sites will sell them


There is an argument that it's NOT theft - because you aren't taking any money away from the creator [as he won't sell any more]

You aren't effecting the creators 'bottom line' - the music and film industry always talk about piracy in terms of how much it costs them

I just feel a little annoyed on any decsion [by creators] that increases the amount of people who use/buy pirate versions. As you can argue all you want that people shouldn't use the chinese websites - but when you give them no other option [if they want to get the product]

And it's lazy to say if they missed out they shouldn't be able to get it anywhere.

I have no horse in this, other than a load of my work has been pirated - as I already have the actual book...

But I think it's unfair for someone coming into the art tomorrow, or who didn't see this book until now - to be told - too late...

But some people love the feeling of them having it to them selves - and it's almost an enjoyment others not being able to get one themselves
Paul S Wingham
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Theft / not theft, it's morally wrong and those supporting pirated material and knock offs are as bad as thieves in my opinion. However, you only have to reconcile your actions with your own conscience, not mine.

In all walks of life, people sell things on a limited basis for a variety of reasons. It's of course frustrating for those who wanted something and missed out but hey, a) life isn't always fair and b) that is up to the creator.

I don't personally care about the limited nature of this because I suspect even an unlimited and really popular trick is only likely to sell a few thousand units, but I think we should honour the creator's wishes and suggesting buying / obtaining pirated versions is not on in my opinion under any circumstances and those in our community do this should rightly be vilified
The Duster
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But it's ok to let friends read your book?

I know legally it is

But when it's the 'secret' you are paying for AND when it's a limited run - you are in effect paying for only 499 others to have that info - that should also register on people's conscience. That if you let friends read your copy, you have in effect lessened the value of everyone else's book.
Paul S Wingham
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
But it's ok to let friends read your book?

I know legally it is

But when it's the 'secret' you are paying for AND when it's a limited run - you are in effect paying for only 499 others to have that info - that should also register on people's conscience. That if you let friends read your copy, you have in effect lessened the value of everyone else's book.


lending a book to a friend is vastly different to a site copying it to PDF and distributing for free or financial gain to hundreds maybe thousands of people.....don't you think? Do we really need to debate that pirates are terrible and people obtaining copyrighted material from them are terrible too? If the answer is yes we do have to debate, lets just agree to disagree as you wont convince me its ok and I don't want to bog this thread down and distract from people discussing what sounds like a fantastic book.
Michael.Kegel
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
But it's ok to let friends read your book?

I know legally it is

But when it's the 'secret' you are paying for AND when it's a limited run - you are in effect paying for only 499 others to have that info - that should also register on people's conscience. That if you let friends read your copy, you have in effect lessened the value of everyone else's book.


lending a book to a friend is vastly different to a site copying it to PDF and distributing for free or financial gain to hundreds maybe thousands of people.....don't you think? Do we really need to debate that pirates are terrible and people obtaining copyrighted material from them are terrible too? If the answer is yes we do have to debate, lets just agree to disagree as you wont convince me its ok and I don't want to bog this thread down and distract from people discussing what sounds like a fantastic book.


I'm absolutely with you as far as piracy is concerned.

I also agree with you that the limited-quantity strategy obviously distracts from using this thread to discuss the content and potential of Timon's book.

However, and correct me on this if I'm wrong, this thread is anyway most likely only interesting for slightly more than 500 people - those who were lucky to hit the buy button on the mentioned first-come-first-served basis - as any other person in my humble opinion wouldn't find it worthwhile reading about a (hands down) fantastic book they will never own because it apparently will never be sold again. I mean why would I go and spend time on getting all excited and enthusiastic over something I'll be dying to have after reading about it here ... but in fact never will?

I still hope that the coming-soon badge on the mindfx.co.uk product page is hinting to the very fact that the publisher has acknowledged the circumstance that the demand for Timon's undoubtedly excellent book is far greater than 500 and that by creating exclusiveness one may put off fellow magicians sincerely admiring those who really created an added value amongst all the way too often mediocre magic products out there on the markt.

And again: no offence meant - just my two cents on the sales strategy.
The Duster
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:

lending a book to a friend is vastly different to a site copying it to PDF and distributing for free or financial gain


I didn't say it wasn't


Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:

Do we really need to debate that pirates are terrible and people obtaining copyrighted material from them are terrible too?


It's cool - I think you don't understand what the discussion is about. It's not about the pirates - it's about the creator.

Is it terrible for them to push 'customers' to the pirates - people who would have bought the item... you say [I guess] it's all down to the 'customers' and they should never use pirate sites. I say in the real world - creators are walking people over to the 'dark side'

I hate pirates - lost me loads of money/sales

But I can understand why 'customers' would go to them - in situations like this... and I see that it doesn't effect the creator's profit/loss. This situation is created by the creator.

That's the debate we were having....

Anyway
The Duster
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
I still hope that the coming-soon badge on the mindfx.co.uk product page is hinting to the very fact that the publisher has acknowledged the circumstance that the demand for Timon's undoubtedly excellent book is far greater than 500 and that by creating exclusiveness one may put off fellow magicians sincerely admiring those who really created an added value amongst all the way too often mediocre magic products out there on the markt.

And again: no offence meant - just my two cents on the sales strategy.


I'm sure that, that would be the worst outcome for FX/Michael/Timon

If they sell the book on a one off run of 500 copies - and then go back on that... what about the people who already bought it. The price they paid for it - was for a book that would only have 500 copies sold. It would potentially leave a bad taste in the mouth of some. And would forever be something that was used to sell the books - that was not true.

I wouldn't mind if FX did this [as a buyer of the book] - but others I am sure would complain. Such is life...
Mark_Chandaue
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Personally I am not a fan of limited editions except in circumstances where the limited edition is an enhanced version of the otherwise freely available item. For example I have the limited edition deluxe leather bound harbincadabra. The normal version of harbincadabra was not limited and includes the same info as the deluxe one but it isn't leather bound with gold leaf edges. However creators have the absolute right to choose how many copies they want to make available just as they have the absolute right not to release their material at all.

The reality is that when it comes to Mentalism books they are pretty much all limited to an extent whether formally or informally unless printed by Lulu because there comes a point where there isn’t sufficient demand for another print run which will mean some people might miss out. I am constantly told by people that my book is on peoples list but I don’t have many copies left and when they are gone they are gone because the remaining demand isn’t enough to warrant another print run.

In this particular case this effect is a signature routine of Timon’s that he is still using and so I can understand why he would want to limit the number of people doing it. The fact that it will probably get pirated is not necessarily a consideration when it comes down to how many copies you will produce. I know the pirates have sold more copies of Ophiuchus than I have despite the genuine article being readily available, good quality and pretty cheap so people will go to the pirates either way. Making more copies available is not the solution to piracy and neither is lack of availability the cause of piracy.

The battle against the pirates is an entirely separate issue that is driven by people’s desire to save money. Even if you put something out for a dollar the pirates would still sell plenty of copies at 20 cents each. Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there that don’t care how cheap something is if they can get 5 for the price of one.

Mark
Harpacrown is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk
Ophiuchus is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=ophiuchus
Totally Free Will is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=totally-free-will
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:
Theft / not theft, it's morally wrong and those supporting pirated material and knock offs are as bad as thieves in my opinion. However, you only have to reconcile your actions with your own conscience, not mine.


The problem is that the majority of high priced releases (and low-priced) include theft of other creators' material and principles -with or without credit (credit is not permission).

The modern Mentalism market has become like the Wild West. The chase for money by "creators" has helped create the pirates and the market for pirates.

I don't include this book, which is wonderfully written-even if the routine only qualifies as "the holy grail" in certain, very specific circumstances.
TheGingerWizard
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I bought this book at the same time as PHASMA from mindfx. I was unsure where to post this as although they are both great books, they both slightly irritated me for the same reason. What's with the incessant footnotes?? It really disrupts the flow of the text and takes away some of the enjoyment of reading. If you see a small number at the end of a sentence (often) you have two choices, avert your eyes to the bottom of the page to read something in a slightly smaller font, or wait until the end of the page and read all the footnotes out of context looking back to see what that particular point pertains to. Either way it is jarring. If it is relevant write it into the main body of the book, if not consider leaving it out. Footnotes on almost every page makes the reading experience akin to a choose your own adventure - ok number 3, where's number 3 right ok, where was I? (1)






















1. I hope this doesn't become a trend.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance.


If they reprinted it then it would be contradicting the fact that this was a LIMITED run publication then wouldn't it? If you were selling a product and you advertise that product to being LIMITED to a certain quantity worldwide, you would effectively be lying if you then go do a reprint would you not? That would automatically hurt your reputation as a company would it not?


Regardless of something contradicting a company's announcement ... If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand? Imagine 5,000 people would've decided to buy this book if there were more than 500 copies available and the company in question would not go to any lengths to satisfy 4,500 prospective customers but rather decides to put 4,500 prospective customers off by emphasising that limited means limited. Frankly, I've never understood this "limited" concept. Tough luck who didn't hit the buy button instantly upon hearing of this offer and without giving much thought to whether or not this might suit one's performance style. Doesn't feel all too good. It's not even commercial thinking because the people who took said decision are even letting a good deal of money slip through their fingers. And if the idea of limiting the quantity of a printed copy is the decisive factor here, then maybe a download file might reduce the printing expenses allowing to keep this book available for more than the first 500.

However, and that's a huge "however" ... I carefully read what Michael said about the notify-me option provided by mindfx.co.uk which I've already arranged for. Fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who will own this apparently limited and never-again-for-sale-again offer, because I truly admire Timon's work and find it a pity that so many (less valuable) magic products flood the market while precious gems like this one are only for the privileged as it seems.

PS: my apologies if my response offended somebody. I just needed to vent my spleen obviously.


I would agree with you if the product was never originally marketed to be a LIMITED release item.

Remember, having a LIMITED release item does several things for the product:

1. Allows the item to be charged at times at a higher premium (often times, a MUCH higher premium) than if it was a release with not set limit of copies.
2. Allows the item to sell much more quickly and often times would be able to move more copies than it would have otherwise (the LIMITED quality of the release often is the driving momentum of sales for the release).
3. If planned properly, one can make MORE money by making a product a LIMITED release than they would have otherwise if it was not limited through life time sales.

Limited releases are not pro-consumer, as you have pointed out. However, as a retailer, end of the day it's a matter of economics. As a creator, I believe that a creator also has the ability to limit their releases. Think back to Derren Brown's books. They were both limited releases. In fact, Pure Effects had two runs, the second run is missing a routine which was in the original run. Why? Because Derren wished to keep that routine from high circulation as it was a routine that is near and dear to him. So with that in mind, why shouldn't a creator be allowed the freedom to limit their releases? It's their material, they have the right to release it in whichever manner they like. It's not pro-consumer but then again, this is someone's creative output and they are perfectly entitled to limit the release of their material if they wish.

From a business perspective, if something is advertised as a limited release and because it's super popular, they then break their initial promise and make it a release going on for an indefinite amount, the retailer now faces the issue of breaking a promise essentially to existing customers. This directly and negatively reflects on the seller/producer. Even when Guy Hollingworth released a new version of Reformation, he actually shot a brand new video for Reformation rather than just digitizing the original VHS and releasing that. He did that to both keep his promise of the limited nature of the original Reformation VHS as well as to introduce his continued work on it in the years since that original release. Even with that, the original customers of the Reformation VHS were at bare minimum slightly annoyed by this move.

Let's be perfectly honest here, your main objection here at the end of the day is that you missed out on buying the book and are now sharing your frustrations because of that. That's understandable, but you are ignoring all the points I've made above. I also do not find anything you have posted to be offensive, it's all understandable.
Michael.Kegel
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance.


If they reprinted it then it would be contradicting the fact that this was a LIMITED run publication then wouldn't it? If you were selling a product and you advertise that product to being LIMITED to a certain quantity worldwide, you would effectively be lying if you then go do a reprint would you not? That would automatically hurt your reputation as a company would it not?


Regardless of something contradicting a company's announcement ... If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand? Imagine 5,000 people would've decided to buy this book if there were more than 500 copies available and the company in question would not go to any lengths to satisfy 4,500 prospective customers but rather decides to put 4,500 prospective customers off by emphasising that limited means limited. Frankly, I've never understood this "limited" concept. Tough luck who didn't hit the buy button instantly upon hearing of this offer and without giving much thought to whether or not this might suit one's performance style. Doesn't feel all too good. It's not even commercial thinking because the people who took said decision are even letting a good deal of money slip through their fingers. And if the idea of limiting the quantity of a printed copy is the decisive factor here, then maybe a download file might reduce the printing expenses allowing to keep this book available for more than the first 500.

However, and that's a huge "however" ... I carefully read what Michael said about the notify-me option provided by mindfx.co.uk which I've already arranged for. Fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who will own this apparently limited and never-again-for-sale-again offer, because I truly admire Timon's work and find it a pity that so many (less valuable) magic products flood the market while precious gems like this one are only for the privileged as it seems.

PS: my apologies if my response offended somebody. I just needed to vent my spleen obviously.


I would agree with you if the product was never originally marketed to be a LIMITED release item.

Remember, having a LIMITED release item does several things for the product:

1. Allows the item to be charged at times at a higher premium (often times, a MUCH higher premium) than if it was a release with not set limit of copies.
2. Allows the item to sell much more quickly and often times would be able to move more copies than it would have otherwise (the LIMITED quality of the release often is the driving momentum of sales for the release).
3. If planned properly, one can make MORE money by making a product a LIMITED release than they would have otherwise if it was not limited through life time sales.

Limited releases are not pro-consumer, as you have pointed out. However, as a retailer, end of the day it's a matter of economics. As a creator, I believe that a creator also has the ability to limit their releases. Think back to Derren Brown's books. They were both limited releases. In fact, Pure Effects had two runs, the second run is missing a routine which was in the original run. Why? Because Derren wished to keep that routine from high circulation as it was a routine that is near and dear to him. So with that in mind, why shouldn't a creator be allowed the freedom to limit their releases? It's their material, they have the right to release it in whichever manner they like. It's not pro-consumer but then again, this is someone's creative output and they are perfectly entitled to limit the release of their material if they wish.

From a business perspective, if something is advertised as a limited release and because it's super popular, they then break their initial promise and make it a release going on for an indefinite amount, the retailer now faces the issue of breaking a promise essentially to existing customers. This directly and negatively reflects on the seller/producer. Even when Guy Hollingworth released a new version of Reformation, he actually shot a brand new video for Reformation rather than just digitizing the original VHS and releasing that. He did that to both keep his promise of the limited nature of the original Reformation VHS as well as to introduce his continued work on it in the years since that original release. Even with that, the original customers of the Reformation VHS were at bare minimum slightly annoyed by this move.

Let's be perfectly honest here, your main objection here at the end of the day is that you missed out on buying the book and are now sharing your frustrations because of that. That's understandable, but you are ignoring all the points I've made above. I also do not find anything you have posted to be offensive, it's all understandable.


Actually, I'm not ignoring all the points you've made above, I rather don't understand doing stuff like that. To a certain degree, these actions are understandable, but putting off prospective customers who don't hit the buy button right away and even as far as pre-order items are concerned is never a good idea - in my opinion. That doesn't affect Timon's work which still is absolutely brilliant, and I'm writing that without having had the opportunity to take a look into this book. However, of course every publisher or creater may do as they please.

Maybe I'm lucky with the notify-me option Michael addressed before in this thread. Fingers crossed.
kissdadookie
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On Jul 17, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Actually, I'm not ignoring all the points you've made above, I rather don't understand doing stuff like that. To a certain degree, these actions are understandable, but putting off prospective customers who don't hit the buy button right away and even as far as pre-order items are concerned is never a good idea - in my opinion. That doesn't affect Timon's work which still is absolutely brilliant, and I'm writing that without having had the opportunity to take a look into this book. However, of course every publisher or creater may do as they please.

Maybe I'm lucky with the notify-me option Michael addressed before in this thread. Fingers crossed.


The book is truly exceptional though. I'm deeper into it now, I'm very impressed and have learned a lot of interesting things in regards to the process of routining, what a routine is, what a effect is, and essentially how to craft a routine and effect. The information and philosophy contained in this book is so well thought out and you can tell that what he preaches he has practiced and worked in order to come up with what the things he is sharing with the reader.
Mac_Stone
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This has gone off the rails...
celebrity
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Whenever I take on a project from another creator I help to advise them on quantities for production. Both myself and Timon eventually agreed upon a quantity of 500. Generally speaking runs of 500 books normally sell out over a couple of months to a year depending upon the nature of the material and it's target audience (thus giving everyone a realistic chance to pick up a copy) but even I underestimated how fast this book would sell.

Whilst I fully sympathise with those that missed out, I have to stay true and honorable to my word therfore will not be producing any more of these books in respect for those that purchased it on good faith that it would be kept limited to 500 copies. This decision was made prior to print and so whilst I understand this may frustrate some, I would rather keep my integrity than go against my word for profit.

I am a firm activist in taking action against pirate stores and whilst many tell me it is a waste of time, my inner self always tries to prove otherwise. Those that have any respect for their art or indeed the artists will steer clear of sending money to those that steal the interlectual property of others and whilst pirates may pirate, the physical book itself is a limited piece of art that can never be copied.

Whilst I myelf have been in the exact same position of missing out on a limited book (as it was sold out moments after it was announced) I reasoned that I already have plenty of books filled with gems within my library that I haven't been given the adequate time and study they deserve. Take this opportunity to look through the library you already have, choose a book at random, turn to a random page and begin to read, chances are high that you will surprise yourself Smile

Best Wishes to all!

Michael
As a mentalist you must always ask yourself what if! And throughout your life you should seek to ask and answer this question over and over again, only then will your wildest dreams become a reality!

Visit - www.mindfx.co.uk to learn more!
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
This situation is created by the creator.

No, in this you are very, VERY wrong. This “situation” is not created by the person releasing the product. It IS created by people who have no concern obtaining things illegally and then justifying their actions. Blaming the people releasing the product is exactly the same mentality as blaming the guy who didn’t lock his door when his stuff got stolen. It is exactly the same mentality of “look at how she was dressed...”

There will ALWAYS be a line of limited distribution. Bullying people into going back on their word because one just has to have this version of a magic trick... really now. The idea is theirs. How the choose to disseminate that idea is their choice. If one can’t abide by it and has to go out and acquire it illegally, that is THEIR CHOICE. No author is forcing them to do so.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, celebrity wrote:
Whenever I take on a project from another creator I help to advise them on quantities for production. Both myself and Timon eventually agreed upon a quantity of 500. Generally speaking runs of 500 books normally sell out over a couple of months to a year depending upon the nature of the material and it's target audience (thus giving everyone a realistic chance to pick up a copy) but even I underestimated how fast this book would sell.

Whilst I fully sympathise with those that missed out, I have to stay true and honorable to my word therfore will not be producing any more of these books in respect for those that purchased it on good faith that it would be kept limited to 500 copies. This decision was made prior to print and so whilst I understand this may frustrate some, I would rather keep my integrity than go against my word for profit.

Michael


Well played, sir.
The Duster
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
This situation is created by the creator.

No, in this you are very, VERY wrong. This “situation” is not created by the person releasing the product. It IS created by people who have no concern obtaining things illegally and then justifying their actions. Blaming the people releasing the product is exactly the same mentality as blaming the guy who didn’t lock his door when his stuff got stolen. It is exactly the same mentality of “look at how she was dressed...”

There will ALWAYS be a line of limited distribution. Bullying people into going back on their word because one just has to have this version of a magic trick... really now. The idea is theirs. How the choose to disseminate that idea is their choice. If one can’t abide by it and has to go out and acquire it illegally, that is THEIR CHOICE. No author is forcing them to do so.


Hmm quoting seven words and not taking the context of the paragraph - crazy

But then to suggest I’m bullying ppl into going back on their word.... when I argued the exact opposite. Nice
Ustaad
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On Jul 17, 2019, celebrity wrote:

. . . . and whilst pirates may pirate, the physical book itself is a limited piece of art that can never be copied.


EXACTLY - very well said.

Over the years I have seen that any such well written and well accepted limited release are truly a priceless master piece of our art.

Smile
MAGIC is a SECRET, without the SECRET, there is no MAGIC.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke.
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