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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricky business Ľ Ľ How much effect does the market have on your own image? (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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WitchDocChris
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In another thread about insurance, Danny said this -

Quote:
On Jul 3, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
But as I said the looking more professional stuff on some level is wishful thinking to me. Once you are on whatever level it is assumed you have it anyhow.


And that just solidified something that's been bopping around my head lately.

I know each region/market is going to have its unique quirks and oddities. Like which advertising methods are most effective and that kind of thing.

But here's something my wife and I have been dealing with - There are few serious performers in this area, outside of music acts. Unless you go down to Baltimore, there's probably less than 20 or so people who perform for the public regularly, who do things like circus, sideshow, magic, mentalism, aerials, acrobatics, juggling, etc.

Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.

I know that once you hit a certain level your reputation will speak for itself - but we are not there quite yet.

So has this happened to anyone else and how did you approach the scenario? Is this just the normal scenario for someone building up their business and I'm just thinking it's odd because of my perception of it?
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Dannydoyle
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Time is your only ally.

Keep in mind though you build it one brick at a time. It takes quite a while to do so forget what the idiotic booms and guru speak will tell you. Every interaction builds you. You can only control how you act and this is important.

Dress right. Look good. Always act as if someone is watching because they are.

Another reason why "fake it till you make it" is dumb. When you get caught faking it people know who you are and it kills everything you build. This is one reason I never negotiate, or increase price according to their budget. To me negotiating is an inherently dishonest proposition. I want to get as much as I can from you is a strange way to do business to me. I prefer to ask for my value flat out. All who have worked with me be it venue or private know this and it is just how it is. But that takes time to build.

Know what you want your business to be and be that. Don't think you start acting that way once you are a success. It starts right from day one.

You will never stop the comparing. It is life. But as you are seen as different it begins to matter. Just keep being what you are. People will notice the difference, you won't have to point it out to them. Live it. Once they have decided the difference you are home free. But selling them on the difference makes them suspicious. Let them discover it. This way it is THIER conclusion not you convincing them.

Yeah this takes way more time and the gurus want you to think it won't. I'm sure one will be along to contradict everything I'm saying so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Also it is possible, and often necessary to outgrow your market.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Itís the hobbyists and part-timers that keeps magic alive and I would think that they do more good than harm to the industry as a whole.

The general buying public perceives all like businesses to be pretty well the same until they are proven wrong. And outside of Las Vegas and other tourist places magicians are no different, they all either pull rabbits from a hat or do card tricks, and thatís pretty well the perception about all the magicians they havenít seen yet, and on average they have seen very few if any. Of course good promotional material with lots of photos to change their pre-conceived image can help. Word of mouth is good but it is limited to a small area and it only comes from those who have already seen you.

But beware, in trying to be different Iím seen some businesses go so far away from the normal that they leave the demand arena. They then have to created a new demand for what looks to be a new product, and in a small area that can be very tough to do. Competition is not always a bad thing when it is creating demand. Among the competition the better wins, not necessarily the different.

Many go into business for themselves not realizing that itís a lot of marketing/sales work to it. Poor salespeople make poor business owners. Businesses close down everyday simply because having a good product alone is not enough to keep it going. It takes a lot of work in a small town to be perceived as someone that should be performing in the big cities with the superstars, but until you reach that level, you are just one of us. Smile

Look the part, play the part and you will become a part.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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Word of mouth is absolutely NOT A LIMITED to those who have seen you. This is ridiculous. People who have never had a Cuban cigar understand the standard. That is the most short sighted thing to believe and it limits success tremendously!

You can develop (And SHOULD!) a word of mouth reputation that preceeds you. This is the point of word of mouth.

People who do not own a Rolex, a Ferrari, or eaten Kobe beef know the standard because of WORD OF MOUTH.

The idea that all magicians are the same is the point of view of a hobbiest. It is simply not the reality of the situation at all.

In the real world of performance for money and to earn a living I'm sorry Tom what you just posted is very bad information. It is very limiting and causes stagnation.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Of course it is limited to those who have seen you, how will I tell others about someone I donít know? I hardly think someone seeing your show will go all over town doing your advertising for you. They may tell their 3 freinds but that's about it. You have to do a LOT of shows before word of mouth has any impact whatsoever. True it helps and it builds over time but that takes a long time. The long time professionals can depend on repeat business, others canít.

Yes in the eyes of the general public all magicians are seen different than what other magicians may see you.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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So nobody knows about Cuban cigars but those who buy them and 3 people? How silly.

This is a very limiting viewpoint. I will tell you this. When you understand this concept better it helps with the job of being an entertainer.

You are completely misunderstanding the concept of branding and what it can do for you.

Maybe in the Daycare center magician market you are right. In the rest of the world you are just way wrong.

Please do not infect people with this ridiculous concept. It will hurt them.

YES IT TAKES TIME. But so does everything we are talking about.

The only glitch is you have to be able to do something that is worth talking about. If you are mediocre and exactly the same as everyone else and do nothing that sets you apart word of mouth does not work. As a matter of fact it works against you.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Iíve heard people say that Cuban cigars are better than the normal, but I would think it would be very, very hard for a non smoker to describe how much better it is to someone else.
Iím not sure they would even try.

But thatís just me.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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But if a non smoker wanted to buy a gift for a smoker of cigars the word of mouth of the Cuban would have reached them.

Why do you insist on making things so difficult?

The point is Tom YOU HAVE HEARD they are better. That is the definition of word of mouth! You never have experienced one yet you have heard.

You are admitting the point I'm making is right and STILL YOU ARGUE. Why do you create these problems every thread?

Word of mouth is not only the most effective form of advertising, it is the most adorable.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Oh I completely agree that word of mouth is the best and cheapest advertising you can get. But I donít agree that it will reach enough people to make an impact for the average magician.
Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring from referrals is not the best business plan to have. All I'm saying is you have to market, market, market to get your name out. Iím sure
there are some GREAT magicians just sitting at home wondering why nobody has called


Anyway, Happy 4th of July

Tom
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jul 3, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle...


I think you have identified and hit the nail on the head with several of your observations. You are correct, most performers are not professionals or carry themselves as professionals in their behaviors, operations or appearance. They havenít a clue. Few are concerned with this and fewer yet identify this and seek the knowledge and education to address and improve this. You are right, they do it for their personal interests, for fun, and maybe to make a few bucks.

As someone who has identified this such as you and your wife (is she a performer too?) this can create a great opportunity if understood and utilized properly.

Also, letís consider a few other bits of informationÖmost people do not know a professional performer or entertainer. In most peopleís mind there are only two levels of performers - the stars. celebrities or well-known (which is what they consider ďprofessionalsĒ) and then all of the others - amateurs, wannabes, hobbyists, enthusiasts, and locals. They donít understand there are several levels in between which are where the majority of workers lies.

Again, this is something I have always felt we can use to our advantage if done properly. YOU can be the one to educate them and YOU can be the ďprofessionalĒ they know personally.

While I agree with Danny that this is a process and happens over time, it is easier than ever before (previous generations) due to social media, ease of support materials, social proof, resources, communications and impressions you can make on your target area.

This also allows the true professional performer to quickly and easily rise above everyone else (competition) rather quickly and easily.

This is also where this can tie into the other recent thread of thomasR about working more shows vs. making more money per show and working less shows. If you are a local or regional performer trying to establish yourself, utilize the information I mentioned above, and setting out on the process to be the professional or top performer in your area (whether in a market of only 20 performers or 200 performers) the more shows (reach and visibility) can be the best approach. In this case is where it strongly supports the approach of working as many performances as possible, in front of as many people as possible (audience to create word of mouth and recommendations), and as many prospective clients as possible.

This is also where having a decent 2-wall arrangement can be quite beneficial to this process of establishment as well.

I have a 50 point criteria for what comprises being a professional. Most havenít a clue. But for those serious about being the top professional in your market, it can be a game-changer.

Then when you couple things like press and media, the proper business operations and strategies, and the proper professional use of social media that can make this happen much quicker than say someone starting at the same point 20 years ago.

I see all of this as an opportunity. Sure there are obstacles, and most people do not get it, but when you incorporate this into your approach and utilize this to your advantage it can actually help propel your brand and positioning.

Same for when you try to get a loan, mortgage, credit, and taxes, performers are terribly looked down upon and there is much prejudice and bias due to this ignorance. It is something I myself have been facing since a teen. It is just part of what we do. Eventually, you know youíve turned the corner when as a performer you will have access and acceptance to these as conventional people do.

I have found, and prove this over and over again to those I work with, that you can overcome this and create the desired perspective and position within your market. Use these existing mindsets and mentalities to your advantage.

I couldnít disagree more with Tomís ďLook the part, play the part and you will become a part.Ē This is more unicorns and fairydust encouragement, but worse yet it is directly the same as the ďjust fake it ítil you make itĒ mentality and approach. This rarely if ever works, and gets quite damaging when others realize you have little or no experience and it becomes more than evident. Thinking something does not make it reality or make you become the part. If anything, in my own professional experience, I have found that the performer starts believing their own BS and thinks they are something they are not. Thinking they have experience they do not. (Geez, does this sound familiar around here?) This type of encouragement is terrible advice and false encouragement. Unfortunately, I see this more today than ever before so Tom is not the only one that subscribes to this mentality and false encouragement.

I also believe business and success takes far more than just marketing as many gurus want you to believe.

I agree word of mouth is best but you can not rely on it to just happen, you have to make this happen with well-thought-out and implemented strategies. Word of mouth, while always being the best, is also not enough on its own. Other strategies, models, support and executions must also be in place.

I also think for the type of performer you are WitchDocchris you have an easier chance than if you were just another typical faceless magician in the crowd. Again, position and branding plays into performing business greatly today, probably more than ever before.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro,

Great post and I agree, word of mouth doesnít just happen on its own, which is my point. Itís only a small part of the overall marketing plan.

Also let me say, ďLook the part, play the part and you will become a partĒ doesnít have to be faking anything. Nothing wrong with doing your
very best and being as professional as you can at all times. We only become better through our habits. Iím not suggesting you fake anything.

But I will say, telling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you could give them. Smile

Tom
Dannydoyle
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NOBODY SAID RELY ONLY ON WORD OF MOUTH Tom. And no it is not only a small part of an overall plan.

You are about to ruin a perfectly good thread yet again by talking about things you obviously know nothing about. Please stop now if your ego will let you. Just quit please. You have missed the point completely.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jul 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
But I will say, telling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you could give them. Smile

Tom


Nobody said anything about "being themselves" as advice.
TomBoleware
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Well I donít believe I said ANYBODY said ANYTHING.

My God, you two need to get some professional help, Iíve never in my life seen such nonsense.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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Tom you are really the one who needs professional help. You AGREE with me and give an example and then argue.

And if nobody said the things you are saying then why bring them up? Just rambling in a desperate attempt to be taken seriously?

Again I beg you just let this thread alone.

You have no experience in this decade, probably this century about what is being spoken of. Just let those of us with experience talk please. Do not continue like this.

And please stop stalking me like this.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Not arguing at all.
Tom
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh I completely agree that word of mouth is the best and cheapest advertising you can get. But I donít agree that it will reach enough people to make an impact for the average magician.
Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring from referrals is not the best business plan to have. All I'm saying is you have to market, market, market to get your name out. Iím sure
there are some GREAT magicians just sitting at home wondering why nobody has called


Anyway, Happy 4th of July

Tom


THIS is an argument against what is being said Tom.

And since NOBODY said "sit home and wait for the phone to ring from referrals", except you of course, you are arguing against straw men you put up just to be able to argue against them. (Unless you are ascribing that bs to me, which I NEVER said. But since you claim *ahem* you are not saying I said anything you must just be arguing with yourself. WHICH DERAILS THE THREAD so please stop!)

As my father was fond of pointing out everything that precedes the word "but" is a lie.

Now please stop with the silly straw men arguments. Please stop making points against things nobody said. Please STOP derailing a perfectly good thread.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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You just wonít stop will you?

Before I stop, I want to ask you about this. You bring it up often

On Jul 4, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

Maybe in the Daycare center magician market you are right. In the rest of the world you are just way wrong.
[/quote]

I take that as being another one of your slams against those that do work that market.You do it all the time and I really resent you saying that.


You have no idea what goes on in that market, and YOU JUST ASSUME that you do. Do you think those that work the daycare market works nothing else? I got news for you Danny they know ten times more about marketing than you. Some of them work Birthdays, Schools, Churches, Large Company Events and many, many, more places that you know nothing about. Most do their own marketing and has it down pat. What if I told you that one of the top corporate magicians around today help me write The Daycare Magician Book, well he did.

Iím not going to sit back any longer and let you continue making your snide rude remarks about those that do work this market. For many it is only a sideline to their many other markets they work. They understand marketing & running a business on many levels. You need to stop trying to raise yourself up above all those that work a different market than you. Youíre no better than the rest.

In fact Danny you are the one that knows very little about marketing other than the little job you have. You work the same show at the same place every night. I bet you punch a clock, get paid by the hour, and hope enough people come in to make some decent tips. THAT IS NOT MARKETING. You donít make calls, mail letters, and do business on a daily basis like most working magicians do. You shouldnít even be posting in this section about business & marketing, maybe the working for tips section would be best for you. Go up there and derail the threads like you do here where all you do is put others down. Get over yourself Danny. Or better yet buy my book and find out how real magicians make a living. And Then come back here and talk about marketing, maybe then you will know what you're talking about.

Plainly put, youíre No Superstar Marketing Expert Danny and you need to stop acting like you are and stop putting others down. It only makes you look like a bigger jerk.

Tom
Dannydoyle
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Tom you are so angry and it is blinding you. Nobody cares about your little daycare book.

But really Tom get a grip please and settle down. I'll splain here so you maybe are not so "resentful".

I NEVER said I know thing one about your little daycare market. I have said many times YOU are the expert in that market. I have said many times I have NO CLUE about it. I do not assume I know anything about it and I have admitted it MANY MANY times Tom. For you to be so angry and resentful about something you yourself made up that I said is simply not right Tom. Maybe this comprehension mishap can explain a lot of what your problem is.

You can take it as a slam against those who work that market, but it is simply a fact. Working that market has NOTHING To do with working the rest of the world, and I don't care WHO helped you write your little book. I bet if he showed up here he would be embarrassed by your lack of knowledge.

It is very funny how you claim I know nothing about you but make assumptions, and yet you go make a bunch of incorrect ones about me. I am not going to bother to correct them for you as they are HILARIOUS to watch. But again even IF what you said was true, the fact is Tom I am out working and you are not and never have. You failed at being a performer and everything you ever did and now want to sit back as an older person and pretend you had some sort of glory days on the internet. Show us one review, one video of one show from THIS DECADE Tom. If not then just PLEASE STOP like you implied above.

I am not slamming those who work that market. You made that up again so please stop. Those who work that market are WORKING, unlike you.

So Tom just because you are wrong doesn't mean you should be angry. Just listen and learn. Your decades old theories just don't work.

You notice how this thread started with the WitchdocChris asking about something I said. So let those of us talk who are in the market. When it is daycare I'll never talk. When it is about never being a performer and such that is your time to shine.

No need for name calling Tom. Do I have to call the mods? LOL.

Simply acknowledging your level is not putting you down Tom. It is simply the truth. Sorry you resent it so much. But if you stop making up nonsense and straw man arguments and believing them you will be better off. I don't know why you want to be so imaginary angry at me but it is getting tiresome. You derail almost every thread in order to push your agenda of anger and it is just exhausting. You may want to ask yourself why YOU are so angry Tom? What is it Tom? Jealousy?

Your anger is clouding your perception Tom. Try being less angry at me and just reading what I write.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, What specific market are you talking about working?

We have very specific markets and we have general markets and itís those general markets that we so often talk about here.

But anyway the OP was about being professional in whatever market youíre in.

Tom
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